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What type of weapon is the Breda 30

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
During a discussion in a different thread, a discussion on the best way to translate fucile mitragliatore took a life of it own. The issue appears to be how to classify the Breda 30. Is it an automatic rifle, or is it a light machine gun? I have broken off those posts and moved them to this new thread for discussion. This is will make the thread easier to find during searches and allow the original thread to remain true to its topic.

Pista! Jeff

I will start here......


prego! Comunque hai fatto un errore: "fucile mitragliatore" si traduce in "machine rifle" non "submachine gun" che significa "mitraglietta" ma è una minuzia

In inglese, la traduzione migliore è mitragliatrice leggera (light machine-gun). L'arma è il Breda 30.

Pista! Jeff
 
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Nope! La Breda 30 è un fucile mitragliatore equivalente a cose come l'FM24/29 francese e il BAR Americano per un arma essere classificata come mitragliatrice leggera dovrebbe avere un caricatore con più di 30 colpi, un bipede e canna a cambio rapido, con un caricatore più piccolo è un fucile mitragliatore, senza canna a cambio rapido un arma automatica di squadra, senza bipede un fucile automatico. Infine le categorie che ho descritto non sono arbitrarie, se volete più informazioni controllate il canale di Ian McAllum, Forgotten Weapons, in un suo video nella playlist "Firearms Terminology" spiega la classificazione di mitragliatrici e armi relative.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Questo è tecnicamente vero, ma il Breda 30 è considerato / chiamato una mitragliatrice leggera nelle opere inglesi. Non è indicato come fucile mitragliatore in lingua inglese. L'FM24 / 29 francese è anche indicato come una mitragliatrice leggera in inglese.

Questa non è una domanda tecnica, si tratta della parola inglese corretta per descrivere l'arma.

Anche il Bren ha queste caratteristiche, ma è chiamato mitragliatrice leggera.

Pista! Jeff
 
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jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Ho visto il video di Ian. Non indica 20 colpi, ma indica solo una capacità di munizioni limitata. L'arma può avere o meno un bipiede.

La caratteristica principale di un fucile automatico è che può sparare dalla spalla. Il Breda 30, FM24 / 29 e Bren sono molto difficili da tirare dalla spalla. Sono stati progettati per utilizzare il bipiede.

Ian afferma anche che i fucili automatici non hanno canne a cambio rapido. La BAR non ha una canna a cambio rapido.

Machine-gun terminology

La sezione sul fucile mitragliatore inizia alle 4:14

Edit: Ian elenca l'FM 24/29 come una mitragliatrice leggera alle 10:22.

Pista! Jeff
 
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La Bren conta come mitragliatrice leggera perche ha un caricatore da 30 colpi, Ian elenca il FM24/29 come mitragliatrice leggera perchè ha un caricatore da 25 colpi e una canna molto pesante, il Breda 30 conta come fucile mitragliatore perché, nonostante la canna a cambio rapido, il caricatore da 20 colpi alimentato a lastrine (non amovibile) e il basso rateo di fuoco lo rendono meno una mitragliatrice leggera e più un fucile semiautomatico, questo senza contare il francamente orribile tasso di inceppamenti; il BAR che ha più o meno le stesse caratteristiche del Breda 30, eccetto un'astronomicamente migliore affidabilità, il caricatore amovibile e la canna molto pesante e fissa, è un fucile mitragliatore/automatico: infatti B.A.R. è una sigla e stà per "Browning Automatic Rifle"(Fucile Automatico Browning) e l'unica versione del medesimo che può essere considerata a MALAPENA una mitragliatrice leggera è l' FN Model D. Infine il Breda 30 è così designato dal Regio Esercito: Fucile Mitragliatore Breda 30.
 
During a discussion in a different thread, a discussion took a life of it own on how to classify the Breda 30. Is it an automatic rifle, or is it a light machine gun. I have broken off those posts and moved them to this new thread for discussion. This is will make the thread easier to find during searches and allow the original thread to remain true to its topic.

Pista! Jeff
You can transfert this discussion to the small arms section of the forum?
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
When I first responded to this question, I wrote in Italian because I believe it wouldn't be a contentious issue. As this is now being debated, the conversation needs to be in English as this is an English language forum. If this is a challenge for some, you can write in Italian, but provide an English translation.

Infine il Breda 30 è così designato dal Regio Esercito: Fucile Mitragliatore Breda 30.

[Finally, the Breda 30 is designated by the Royal Army as follows: Breda 30 submachine gun.]

This isn't a discussion of what the R.E. called the weapon. A carro veloce is not translated as a light tank, but as a tankette. Fucile mitragliatore is not translated as submachine gun or an automatic rifle but as a light machine gun.

There isn't a good translation for fucile mitragliatore into English. Literally it would be translated as rifle submachine gun. That makes no sense in English.

[Questa non è una discussione su ciò che il R.E. chiamato l'arma. Un carro veloce non si traduce come carro leggero, ma come tankette. Fucile mitragliatore non è tradotto come mitragliatrice o fucile automatico ma come mitragliatrice leggera.

Non esiste una buona traduzione per fucile mitragliatore in inglese. Letteralmente sarebbe stato tradotto come rifle submachinegun. Non ha senso in inglese.]

La Bren conta come mitragliatrice leggera perche ha un caricatore da 30 colpi, Ian elenca il FM24/29 come mitragliatrice leggera perchè ha un caricatore da 25 colpi e una canna molto pesante, il Breda 30 conta come fucile mitragliatore perché, nonostante la canna a cambio rapido, il caricatore da 20 colpi alimentato a lastrine (non amovibile) e il basso rateo di fuoco lo rendono meno una mitragliatrice leggera e più un fucile semiautomatico, questo senza contare il francamente orribile tasso di inceppamenti;

NO. Ian states that were only two automatic rifles: The Chatchaut and the BAR (the FN mle. D is a variation of the BAR). His definition of an automatic rifle is:
-Limited magazine capacity. (He doesn't define this by a set number of bullets/rounds)
-Designed to be fired from the hip or the shoulder.
-Bipod not necessary.
-Limited duration of fire. (Ian defines this as not having a quick-change barrel, and/or belt fed).

Ian's definition of a light machine gun:
-Box magazine.
-Full power rifle cartridge.
-Fired from a bipod.

l BAR che ha più o meno le stesse caratteristiche del Breda 30, eccetto un'astronomicamente migliore affidabilità, il caricatore amovibile e la canna molto pesante e fissa, è un fucile mitragliatore/automatico:

NO. The Breda 30 isn't designed to be fire from the hip or the shoulder. The BAR and the Breda 30 are two completely different types of weapons.

[NO. Il Breda 30 non è progettato per essere sparato dall'anca o dalla spalla. La BAR e la Breda 30 sono due tipi di armi completamente differenti.]

From Forgotten Weapons https://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/breda-model-30/

The Breda Model 30 was the standard Italian light machine gun of World War II,
 
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I don't call the breda 30 an automatic rifle: i call it a machine rifle because the absence of a way to fire this weapon from the hip disqualify it from the automatic rifle category, but the small capacity stripper clip loaded magazine disqualify it from the LMG category too.
So Machine Rifle.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Good day!

I don't call the breda 30 an automatic rifle: i call it a machine rifle because the absence of a way to fire this weapon from the hip disqualify it from the automatic rifle category,

Okay, we agree.

but the small capacity stripper clip loaded magazine disqualify it from the LMG category to.

A light machine-gun is not defined by a specific number of rounds/bullets. The fact that the Breda 30 has the smallest magazine capacity only means it is the light machine-gun with the smallest magazine capacity.

The only difference between the Breda 30 and the Bren/FM24/29 is the magazine capacity. Does magazine capacity alone cause us to create a completely new type of automatic weapon classification?

Pista! Jeff
 
No, but the Breda 30 fall in the "gap" between the automatic weapons classification:
-If it was lightened we can call it an Automatic Rifle but is too heavy to fire it from the hip
-If the magazine was a little more large or not clip loaded we can barely call it a LMG
But none of the point listed up is true so the Breda fall of the classic classification method, like the Browning M1919 with bipod and buttstock, so i define it Machine Rifle to transmit the sort type of weapon it is.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
...so i define it Machine Rifle to transmit the sort type of weapon it is

As I have stated, machine rifle doesn't mean anything in English. In fact, Machine rifle in any language doesn't mean anything as it is not a known classification of automatic weapons.

Weight: Breda 30 = 10.6 kg; Bren = 10.35kg; FM24/29 = 8.9 kg; Type 96 = 9 kg; DP-27 = 9.12 kg

The Breda 30 is heavier than the other contemporary LMGs, yet it is not an LMG?

-If it was lightened we can call it an Automatic Rifle but is too heavy to fire it from the hip

The weapon wasn't designed to be fired while standing. There is no fore-grip or way to hold the weapon while firing. The ejection port is where the gunner would naturally place their left hand to hold the weapon while firing. You can't load the weapon while moving. It is poorly balanced and awkward to hold because of the sharp edges and the recoiling barrel.

I have owned and fired a Breda 30. You must fire it from the bipod or from a mount to be able to operate it.

The Breda 30 replaced the Breda 5. The main difference between the two weapons is the Breda 5 used a tripod and firing grips while the Breda 30 used a bipod and a butt stock. The R.E. called the Breda C a machine gun while they called the Breda 30 is a machine rifle, yet they are basically the same weapon.

Just because the Italian military decided to use another name doesn't make it significantly different that it needs a new classification.

It is a light machine gun. That is what an English speaker will call it. I am willing to state that most Italians will call it a light machine gun. :)

Pista! Jeff
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
The challenge of using fucile mitragliatore is similar to that of the moschetto automatico. The MAB 38A is not called an automatic carbine (or auto-carbine), it is called a submachine gun.

Pista! Jeff
 
it's not a LMG because the amount of firepower that the breda can deliver didn't match the amount of firepower of even an automatic rifle. I call it a machine rifle because it's andled like a light Machine gun and, teoretically, deliver an amount of firepower that is similar to an automatic Rifle. This is like the Browning M1919A6: it's andled like a GPMG but can deliver only the amount of firepower of a medium MG. So Machine Rifle is not an "Official" categorization but a way to classify a weapon that fall off the traditonal system of designation of the automatic weapons. There isn't a correct way to classify the Breda 30 and the english source call it a LMG beacuse that's the way to denominate a weapon that fullfill that place in the organization of a squad, they made the same thing with the A2 version of the BAR: they added a bipod, reduced the rate of fire and call it a LMG beacuse that's the role the BAR is supposed to fulfill but it isn't the type of weapon the BAR it is.
P.S.: sorry for the chopped english.
P.P.S.: the Regio Esercito did't call it a Moschetto Automatico(that's the way the Beretta commercialized that series of weapon) but Mitra(shortned version of Mitraglietta(vezzeggiativo/diminutivo di Mitragliatrice che arriva con il cambio a cartuccia di pistola))
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, we disagree on what to call the Breda 30. :)

P.S.: sorry for the chopped english.

It is not a problem. :D

P.P.S.: the Regio Esercito did't call it a Moschetto Automatico(that's the way the Beretta commercialized that series of weapon) but Mitra(shortned version of Mitraglietta(vezzeggiativo/diminutivo di Mitragliatrice che arriva con il cambio a cartuccia di pistola))

I have seen MAB used in most contemporary accounts when describing the MAB 38A. In English you don't say pistol machine-gun (pistola mitragliatrice), you say submachine gun.

From an Italian Wiki article (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistola_mitragliatrice)

Propriamente, col termine di pistola mitragliatrice, ci si riferisce all'arma da pugno capace di eseguire il tiro a raffica (come nel caso della Mauser Schnellfeuer), senz'altra modifica che non sia un caricatore più capace o - a volte - un'impugnatura o supporto alla mano debole (Beretta 93R) o un calciolo ribaltabile (Vz 61 Skorpion) oppure amovibile (Heckler & Koch VP70). Più comunemente, il termine pistola mitragliatrice si estende ad armi automatiche con le quali sia possibile il tiro imbracciato, vale a dire che consentono un supporto stabile alla spalla, per mezzo di una vera calciatura. Un'arma appartenente a questa categoria è più precisamente definita col termine italiano di "moschetto mitragliatore", da cui - per contrazione - mitra. Inizialmente collegata al solo modello MAB di produzione Beretta, la definizione "mitra" è rapidamente entrata nell'uso comune a indicare, per analogia, qualunque arma leggera automatica camerata per munizioni da pistola, in una sostanziale traduzione del termine anglosassone SMG (sub-machine gun).

Le pistole mitragliatrici vengono anche chiamate - con termine di conio giornalistico e non tecnico - "mitraglietta", dalla traduzione letterale del termine francese mitraillette, anch'esso nome non tecnico e sostitutivo del più preciso in quella lingua pistolet mitrailleur.

My bold. We are talking translation. The R.E. called the Breda 30 a fucile mitragliatore, it is translated as light machine gun because that is what it is in English. The MAB or mitra is translated as submachine gun, because that is what it is in English. A direct translation of the Italian doesn't clearly indicate the type of weapon. state the type of weapon.

I believe the Breda 30 meets all the requirements to be called a light machine gun. Machine rifle has no value as a descriptor of a weapon. The Breda 30 is just an average LMG, nothing more.

I will not try to change your personal opinion. ;)

Pista! Jeff
 
Same for me: i don't try to change you opinion.
But you can agree with me about the fact that if the Breda 30 is a light machine gun, is a pessime example of the category.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
(y)

:)
 

FrancoFB

Member
Actually for the RE fucile mitragliatore is not a different weapon from mitragliatrice leggera, the just give it a new name in the 1936
 

kolja

New Member
There is no fore-grip or way to hold the weapon while firing. The ejection port is where the gunner would naturally place their left hand to hold the weapon while firing.

Could you not have strapped a piece of leather to the barrel, forward of the ejection port, as a handguard for your supporting hand, and hip-fired using the shoulder-sling for extra support? The Japanese used such a solution to carry around their awkward Type 11 lmg.

I'm making no claims as to how combat-effective that would be (hip-firing anything isn't an ideal way of shooting), I'm just querying your claim that the Breda 30 was impossible to fire while standing. I've seen enough field-made workarounds for that type of thing on other LMGs to make me wonder if the Italians couldn't have tried something similar on the Breda 30?
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
kolja

Note I never said impossible. My discussion is copied below.
The weapon wasn't designed to be fired while standing. There is no fore-grip or way to hold the weapon while firing. The ejection port is where the gunner would naturally place their left hand to hold the weapon while firing. You can't load the weapon while moving. It is poorly balanced and awkward to hold because of the sharp edges and the recoiling barrel.
I am sure I used the word can't somewhere in the discussion as it was used as shorthand while writing. That shorthand needs to be read with 'can't' meaning the discussion above.

Nothing technically is impossible. Many things just aren't worth the effort to achieve useful results. IIRC, there is a famous story of an alpini in Greece fighting off an attack with a Breda 30. He is often depicted in drawings as firing from the hip. He was defending a fixed location (not attacking or moving) which simplified things. There are other drawing where he is standing behind a rock with the Breda resting atop it. That is the more likely reality.

I will point out that it is very difficult and slow for a single individual to fire and reload the magazine while the fm is slung and you are standing. Just lining up the charger into the magazine, then ensuring the charger is pushed all the way so all the rounds are loaded isn't a snap when you are holding the weapon. This isn't a BAR or BREN where you yank out the empty magazine and toss, then merely slap a new mag in. You are possibly talking minutes to reload, especially if under pressure.

If you want, I can describe the issues with the gunner trying to reload the weapon by himself when firing from the bipod. It can be done, but it takes far more time than you think. I can describe the issues when reloading using a sling.

I have seen videos of people standing and holding a M2 50cal MG while firing. Does that mean you can fire a M2 from the hip?

So yes, it is possible. Is it something that can/will be done by everyone under all conditions? No. The weapon wasn't designed to do it.
 
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