10th reggimento bersaglieri

[jwsleser]

Posted 02 February 2005 - 06:05 PM by antonio

What was the composition of the 10th bersaglieri regiment?

In some places I have seen that its battalions were:XVI, XXXIV,XXXV, in other places, XVI, XXXIV,XXXV or XXXV,LXIII,LXXIX.

Which one was the correct?. Maybe the difference is related to the different war campaigns in which took part: Operation compass 1940, tunis 1943 and Sicily 1943'

Which one is the correct?

Best regards

Posted 04 February 2005 - 02:03 PM by Michele

You question was already answered by yourself .

As far as I know (from my notes):

10th Bersaglieri:

summer 1940: XVI, XXXIV, LXIII
destroyed during comppass, only few managed to reach Tripoli.

a new 10th was among the first units to reach Tunisia: in November it was in the region of Biserta, at disposal of the germans, with
XVI,XXXIV, LXIII
10. e 10.bis compagnie moto [=motorcycle companies]
reparti accompagnamento e c/c [=support weapons and AT units]

then a third 10th regiment was organized in Sicily and fought there.

Antonio

Posted 09 February 2005 - 04:50 PM by antonio

thanks a lot, Michele. Now all is much more clear.

Then, there was no XXXV battalion?, I make this question because I have found that the bersaglieri regiments had the same battalions in WW1 and WW2, and in the WW1 the composition of 10th bersaglieri was XVI, XXXIV and XXXV.

Do you know what happened with this missing battalion?

Best regards

Antonio

Posted 26 February 2005 - 05:03 PM by Michele

I don't have much expertise on WW1, I can only promise that I shall check in my notes.

Regards.

Posted 29 October 2005 - 03:30 PM by david

Just to confuse matters

I have an O.O.B which shows 10 Bersaglieri Reggimenti in September 1940 with XVI, XXVI & XXXV Battaglione. I'm not saying that it is correct. But it would be good to have a final & definite answer, so that we can lay this one to rest!

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:04 PM by Lupo Solitario

try to make an analysis

1) practically all agree on XVI

2) I fear that the known troubles about roman numbering (as exchanges between IV and VI or the loss of a X somewhere or...) are responsible for the confusion between XXIV, XXVI, XXXIV, etc.etc.

3) AFAIK battalions numbered over L had been created during war so I don't believe there were in 1940 regimental OOB

Posted 29 March 2006 - 04:25 PM by david

So Lupo is going with 16th, 24th & 35th. (please excuse Arabic numerals this once, due to possible confusion regarding Roman ones)
Am I right?

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 29 March 2006 - 04:52 PM by voloire

afaik:
at the beginning of the war:

10° reggimento,
on XVI aut. XXXIV aut. XXXV aut.,
10a cp moto , 10a cp cc 47/32

10 reggimento
In Africa since 1940 disbanded and reconstitued take part to the final part of war in in Tunisia, where is disbanded again.
Of the originals battaglioni manteins just XXXV.
On July 43 the "third" 10° on XXXV - LXXIII -LXXIV leaves Palermo to take part to defend Sicily by Americans.

Posted 29 March 2006 - 04:57 PM by david

Voloire says 16th, 34th & 35th!

So we have agreement on 16th & 35th, but a discrepancy between either 24th or 34th still to sort out.

Like Meatloaf sang.... "2 out of 3 ain't bad!!" :wink:

Posted 29 March 2006 - 07:19 PM by Reggie O

afaik:
at the beginning of the war:

10° reggimento,
on XVI aut. XXXIV aut. XXXV aut.,
10a cp moto , 10a cp cc 47/32

I have those same btns, but not the two companies; in fact I have the 22. Motorcycle Co. And the btns were on trucks/lorries?

10 reggimento
In Africa since 1940 disbanded and reconstitued take part to the final part of war in in Tunisia, where is disbanded again.

In Tunisia I have it with 3 different btns, LVII, LXIII, LXXXVII, and no other support companies. Btns on trucks/lorries.

Of the originals battaglioni manteins just XXXV.
On July 43 the "third" 10° on XXXV - LXXIII -LXXIV leaves Palermo to take part to defend Sicily by americans.

Hey, we agree!!!! I have the same three btns!!! All on trucks/lorries.

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:16 AM by voloire

AFAIK

XXIV btg aut. was in 5° reggimento bersaglieri, with XIV, XXII and 5° cp 47/32

Posted 31 March 2006 - 06:17 PM by Reggie O

XXIV btg aut. was in 5° reggimento bersaglieri, with XIV, XXII and 5° cp 47/32

I agree with the btns, but I don't have the support company.

Posted 03 April 2006 - 08:51 AM by voloire

thanks.
If you read italian , you can get a look at
Stato del corpo dei Bersaglieri alla vigilia della guerra

Posted 08 April 2006 - 07:32 PM by Lupo Solitario

awards:
Bronze Medal for Sicilian campaign 1943

Posted 05 April 2008 - 08:04 PM by david

Guys.

We still need to confirm the 1940 incarnation.

We are all agreed on XVI (16th)
We are almost all agreed on XXXV (35th)
But the last one, XXIV (24th) or XXXIV (34th) or even XXVI (26th)
( I think XXXIV (34th).

Lets get this one cleared up once & for all!

Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:48 PM by voloire

as I said, AFAIK, on 1940 XXIV was part of 5° reggimento. For me and so far, confirmed XXXIV
See you!

Posted 07 April 2008 - 09:57 PM by david

Voloire.

So, do you agree with XVI (16th) & XXXV (35th) then?

Posted 08 April 2008 - 08:14 AM by voloire

definitely, yes
regards

Posted 08 April 2008 - 12:21 PM by Lupo Solitario

My opinion, too, XVI, XXXIV and XXXV

Posted 09 April 2008 - 12:16 AM by MadDog

Allow me to intrude for a moment, but when the 10th Ber. regt arrived in Libya, was it motorized, semi-motorized, or bicycle mounted ? Madej says "bicycle", but I take that with a big grain of salt.

thanks,
Tom

Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:45 AM by Lupo Solitario

motorized (and BTW there was not something as a "semimotorized" bersaglieri regiment. Bersaglieri regiments in 1940 were or motorized on two truck-borne and one motorcycle battalion or bicycle on three bicycle battalions. The 12 Bersaglieri regiments were six of a kind and six of the other)

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 09 April 2008 - 07:12 AM by david

Take everything Madeji says 'with a pinch of salt'!

The three Battaglione in 10th Reggimento bersaglieri at that point in time were all Motorcyclisti.

Posted 09 April 2008 - 11:29 AM by MadDog

Lupo, you say that the Ber. regiments were either [2xtruck Bn + 1xmotorcycle Bn] or [3xbicycle Bn].
David, you say the 10th Ber. regiment was [3xmotorcycle Bn].

The two statements do not appear to agree.

For the motorcycle or bicycle regiments, I assume the heavy weapons were truck-drawn ?

Speaking of Madej, he uses the US Army Handbook of Italian Military Forces as a source. Is the Handbook that bad of a source, or did Madej just make a lot of mistakes ? I was thinking of getting a copy of the Handbook, but if it is no good, I wont spend the $60.

thanks,
Mad Dog

Posted 09 April 2008 - 11:48 AM by Lupo Solitario

I use relations for official Italian Army documents and the structure for Motorized Bersaglieri Regiment in 1940 was the one I told. I add that AFAIK there had never been a regiment totally on motorcycles

I have not the battalion TO&E;, sorry

Posted 09 April 2008 - 04:33 PM by david

Lupo is right.
The standard Bersaglieri Reggimento was 2x Autoportato Battaglione & 1x Motorcyclisti Battaglione.

I had always the thought the 10th peculiar because I have it on all three as Motorcyclisti. However, my records could be wrong. Let's see if we can get definate clarification on this query.

I can give you a theoretical T.o&E; for each type of Bersaglieri Battaglione, but theoretical and actual in North africa are rarely the same I find.

The point is that our data are based on historical official italian army documents and records. The US Handbook is a wartime assesment made by an intelligent service; it's in itself an "historical" document. After 60 years it should be better using better sources.

Posted 09 April 2008 - 10:37 PM by MadDog

For what its worth, Madej claims the 10th was bicycle mounted (grain of salt, grain of salt). The boardgame DAK2 also says bicycle mounted.

Bicycle battalions: did the bicycle mounting really provide any any mobility benefit in the desert campaign ? I would think the lack of roads prevented the bicycles from being very useful.

I would love to get my hands on the Montanari volumes, but I have a feeling they are very expensive.

thanks,
Tom

Posted 10 April 2008 - 05:44 AM by Granatiere

At Beda Fomm 10o was on 1x autotrasp. and 2x motorcicle batt. Bicicles weren't used in Africa.

Posted 10 April 2008 - 07:05 AM by david

Granitieri,

Do you know which number Battagliione was which?

Posted 10 April 2008 - 07:19 PM by Granatiere

XXXIV Batt. AP
XXXV Batt.
XVI Batt

Posted 11 April 2008 - 08:49 AM by Granatiere

MadDog, you can see Montanari, I, gen. A.Bongioanni, Battaglie nel deserto. Da Sidi el Barrani ad el Alamein, Milan 1978 and two books of general Scala's monumental Storia delle Fanterie Italiane (ten voll! ), I Bersaglieri and La fanteria italiana nella seconda guerra mondiale, Rome 1950-1956

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 11 April 2008 - 07:34 PM by MadDog

MadDog, you can see Montanari, I, gen. A.Bongioanni, Battaglie nel deserto. Da Sidi el Barrani ad el Alamein, Milan 1978 and two books of general Scala's monumental Storia delle Fanterie Italiane (ten voll! ), I Bersaglieri and La fanteria italiana nella seconda guerra mondiale, Rome 1950-1956

Thanks Granatiere. I intend to get copies of the Montanari books. Even if I cant read Italian, I should be able to puzzle things out by knowing certain words and phrases.

thanks,
Mad Dog

Posted 02 May 2010 - 06:40 PM by Dili

When this Bersaglieri unit went Africa? I have it already from 10 Jun as reserve. I have it arriving only in September,October...

Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:18 AM by david

Dili.

I don't have a date of arrival, but I have seen it listed on 10/06/40 .B.

Posted 03 May 2010 - 11:28 AM by Dili

Thanks i have that too, but some say it came later.

Posted 08 June 2010 - 09:54 AM by voloire

AFAIK

10° arrived in NA from Sicily (the HQ was in Palermo) on the firs days of Sept 1940.
The first contact with british troops was at Halfaya pass on sept. 15

Posted 08 June 2010 - 10:20 AM by david

My source was sketchy, so perhaps Voloire is correct.

Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:07 AM by Lupo Solitario

my data were that 10th was "in movement" from its peacetime garrison in Sicily to NA so I suppose Voloire description is correct

Posted 12 June 2010 - 08:23 PM by Dili

From June to September it is still almost 90 days. Wouldn't that be too much time to be in "in movement" or it also means mobilization?

 

[jwsleser]

1940-41

La prima offensive britannica in Africa settentrionale tomo I (p. 267) states the 10º reggimento bersaglieri had the XVI, XXXIV, and the XXXV btg. Jack Greene in his Mare Nostrum (p. 18) also lists these same three battalions, but I suspect that his source is also La prima offensiva. Everything I have read states all three battalions were autoportato (trucks).

Tunisia 1942-43

Il XXX corpo d'armata italiano in Tunisia (pp. 240-241) states the regiment had the XVI, XXXIV, and the LXIII btg., and the 10ª cp. motociclisti. The regiment moved from Sicily to Biserta on 15 November 1942. The XVI btg. was renamed the XXXV btg. while in Tunisia. The 10ª cp. motociclisti was transferred to the L brigata speciale on 20 November and a new 10ª bis cp. motociclisti arrived in Biserta on 28 November. The regiment never had both motociclisti cp. under its command at the same time.

Sicily 1943

In Le operazioni in Sicilia e in Calabria (p. 502) the regiment has the XXV, LXXIII, and the LXXIV btg.

Pista! Jeff

 

[jwsleser]

While searching for a different article, I found Prima esperienze italiane di guerra corazzata by Nicola Pignato in the Società italiana di storia militare Quaderno 1999 (pp. 95-150). On page 119 the author states that the regiment in 1940 was three btg. autoportato.

 

[Slavomir]

To collaborate that La Prima offensiva... names the battalions of the 10th as: XVI, XXXIV and XXXV.

Graziani in his orders from 9 JAN calls 10th as: 10 reggimento bersaglieri motorizzato. Also in the text sometimes 10th is called reggimento bersaglieri autotrasportato. Would is be an indication that all battalions of the 10th were autoportato?

Best regards

Slavomir

 

[Dili]

Yes but...
To give some confusion note that "autotrasportato" might mean the trucks do not belong organically to the unit - that is the term employed for some divisions that do not have organic trucks to move it but are somewhat pre-prepared.

The autoportato and motorizzato means the same thing - on trucks - as far as i have read Italian texts with caveat some subunit might have motorcycles.


Edit:
Era stato inoltre inviato in Libia (e vi era già ai primi di gennaio) il 10° Reggimento bersaglieri (3 battaglioni con 66 ufficiali, 67 sottufficiali, 1660 truppa con 141 autocarri 626 più 9 pesanti); gli autocarri erano stati maggiorati del 15% rispetto all'organico (43). Tale Reggimento, destinato dallo S.M.R.E. alla costituenda Brigata, fu invece trattenuto dal Comando di armata per la sua riserva.


http://www.regioesercito.it/articolivari/espcor.htm
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_626
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_626

 

[diciassette2000]

correct Dili , even if once it became part of the reserve of the 10th army the regiment repeatedly underwent organic changes........
All the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

The term for units that used 'rented/borrowed' trucks is autotrasportabile, not autoportato. Autoportato is always a unit with organic trucks. Autotrasportabile units are not identified as such, as any unit can be moved using borrowed trucks. The divisione autotrasportabile was identified as such because it had the increased vehicles for the artillery and the corpo autotrasportabile to which they belonged had an enlarged autogruppo to provide the limited infantry lift.

I have never read a 2GM reference to a reparto motociclisti as autoportato. It is always motociclisti (or motomitraglieri, etc.).

Motorizzato is a type of unit, but doesn't identify a specific unit. The 10º reggimento bersaglieri can be called motorizzata because all the units within it were autoportato. One doesn't say XVI btg. bers. motorizzata, it is the XVI btg bers. autoportato.

While the modern term is autotrasportato, the 2GM term is autoportato.

All the above are from various period works and Manuale per l'ufficiale frequentatore dell'I. S. di G., fascicolo IV, part quarta, Segni convenzionali ed abbreviazioni (5 Marzo 1935).

Pista! Jeff

 

[Wargames]

I have two transports that arrived in Benghazi on 9/8/40 (Left Italy 9/5/40). It took ten days to unload some 2,000 men, tanks, and trucks. Except for the tanks, this sounds like the 10th Bersaglieri.

 

[diciassette2000]

The Regiment embarks in Palermo on 13 December with three battalions, the XVI, the XXXIV and the XXXV. At 10am on the following 14th he sets sail with the steamer "Marco Polo", escorted by 5 destroyers, 2 cruisers and a reconnaissance aircraft for the AS. In the evening the "Conte Rosso" and the "Esperia" enter the convoy from from Naples with other troops. At 3.00 pm on 15 December the motor ship arrives in Tripoli.
All the best
Maurizio

 

[Wargames]

The Regiment embarks in Palermo on 13 December with three battalions, the XVI, the XXXIV and the XXXV. At 10am on the following 14th he sets sail with the steamer "Marco Polo", escorted by 5 destroyers, 2 cruisers and a reconnaissance aircraft for the AS. In the evening the "Conte Rosso" and the "Esperia" enter the convoy from from Naples with other troops. At 3.00 pm on 15 December the motor ship arrives in Tripoli.
All the best
Maurizio

Some of us have the 10th in action before December. There's a photo of a Bersaglieri motorcyclist available claimed taken in November.

Assuming you're correct, do you have the dates of other troop arrivals? I show 4,600 men landed in September, 2,800 landed in October, and 3,150 landed in November and have no idea who they were.

 

[diciassette2000]

Most likely it is a photo relating to one of the many Bersaglieri motorcyclist companies that were in AS from the beginning of the conflict ..... their arrival date is however among the most difficult things to fix within the staff of the Italian army in AS....
all the best
Maurizio

 

[Dili]

I have it arriving in September.

 

[jwsleser]

Most likely it is a photo relating to one of the many Bersaglieri motorcyclist companies that were in AS from the beginning of the conflict .....

I have aways assumed that these cp. motociclisti ber. arrived when the divisions were established. They were TO&E to the divisione tipo A.S. Most, if not all arrived prior to 10 June 40. However no evidence to support that assumption.

Pista! Jeff

 

[Francoquarter]

They were in the wartime TO&E of the AS divisions, but we* don't know the peace time TO&E

* or i don't know

 

[diciassette2000]

The 20th and 21st companies which were Army Corps companies had been in AS since 1937…
All the best
Maurizio