47/32 AT gun in Africa, June 1940 ?

jwsleser

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It is clear that we lack the information necessary to determine how many 47/32 c.c. the R.E. and G.a.F. units possessed on 1 or 10 June 1940. We are working only work with part of the puzzle. It does appear that the total number of guns is known (127).

The 10th Army Gaf had ... ..
- 23 47/32 counter-truck.
What book and page does this information come from? I still can't find this in any of my sources.

I would like to draw your attention to one more isue. On p. 20, (Le operazioni...) Montanari writes that there were only 60% of 47/32 required for AT coys in divisions (if I understand it corectly).
Well spotted. My guess is that you have a reprint because that info is found on page 21 in my first edition of Montanari. it took me a few minutes to find it.

Since the threat of armored enemies had been underscored, it is worthwhile to highlight what we possessed in this field/area; each division had a company of 47/32 anti-tank guns of eight pieces each and (with the exception of the Libyan divisions) a battalion of light tanks with 46 tanks. In fact, there were only seven light tank battalions and 60% of the 47/32 pieces.
Here the Libyan divisions are included, so 14 X 8 =112. That leaves 15 c.c. in the G.a.F. If 112 is 60%, the total requirement is ~186.

Or does this paragraph mean that each division is suppose to have 8 guns, but in reality only has 60% (5-6 guns)?

I feel (after reading this paragraph many times) that it is latter.

Pista! Jeff
 
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Dili

Member
I think he meant 60% of 112. So around 67 in Divisions. If so 67+23+18= 108 But we have 126 in units. Might be that the 60% are 64% -i never trust so rounded numbers like 60% - so that means 71 in Divisions but still off by 14.

Maybe some Lybian Battalion, Presidio troops or the Parachutists have those 18 missing?
 

jwsleser

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Staff member
I feel (after reading this paragraph many times) that it is latter.
I think he meant 60% of 112.
Yes. I just checked my Italian dictionary to ensure I translated 'In effetti' correctly.

We have 126 in all types of units (including G.a.F.). To pin down where all these c.c. were would be a near hopeless task.

I feel we have now answered the question to the extent possible. 127 47/32 c.c. in A.S., of which roughly 67 are in the 14 divisions. The remainder are in G.a.F. and other Libyan units.

Pista! Jeff
 

jwsleser

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Staff member
Operations in North Africa (Montanari) Volume 1 Sidi El Barrani (pages 30-31 and following ... extract)
The GAF of the 5th army had (Tunisia) ...
-18 47/32 counter-truck
-you asked for 140 47/32 counter-truck
In the meantime, the army had replaced the required 47/32 with the surplus of 77/28 pieces in warehousing (42 in Tripoli).
The 10th Army Gaf had ... ..
- 23 47/32 counter-truck.
-you asked for 235 47/32 counter-truck.
I would still like to know the source for 23 c.c. in the 10ª armata G.a.F.? I have read the 18 c.c. in the G.a.F., but not the 23.

I read forty (40) 75/28 replacing the 47/32 c.c., not 42. Where does that number come from?

Pista! Jeff
 

diciassette2000

New Member
Operations in North Africa (Montanari) Volume 1 Sidi El Barrani (page 45)
If you have Montu Storia dell'Artiglieria Italiana also pag 226 (21 guns Bardia+ Tobruk).....with 40 my tipo.....
All the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

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Staff member
Eccellente! Grazie!
 

Dili

Member
I feel we have now answered the question to the extent possible. 127 47/32 c.c. in A.S., of which roughly 67 are in the 14 divisions. The remainder are in G.a.F. and other Libyan units.
Yeah, unless we get data from Libyan independent units i also don't think we can advance more.


Just for the speculation sake RCTL had 98 guns 01 June 40 but only 28 in 1º Libyan. 2ºLibyan said to have 64 so including non divisional , 64 - 36(if this is the correct number of divisional guns =24 no divisional , 64-48 if this instead remain 16 non divisional
 

jwsleser

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Staff member
From the research I recently posted on the Libyan infantry, a d. Lib. should have twenty 47/32 c.c. Two in each of the six infantry battalions = 12, and eight in the cp. c.c. = 20.

Reading through La Guardia alla Frontiera by Massimo Ascoli (USSME 2012), the data provided isn't complete. Some batteries are listed, but not their gun types. Allegato nº 31 (Ordine di battaglia delle FF.AA. in Africa Settentrionale 1 giugno 1940) lists under Piazzaforte di Bardia "3 compagnie cannoni da 47/32 (6 pezzi a Giarabub)". It appears that the six guns at Giarabub are included in the three cp. c.c. (p. 316).

This document also lists a cp. cannoni with the XXXI big. fanteria G.a.F. at Tobruk. It doesn't list whether this is a 65/17 or 47/32 cp.
 
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