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47/32 AT gun in Africa, June 1940 ?

Dili

Member
I have that the GAF in Africa had 98 AT guns since there were only 127 guns in total (1 of them was in depot) then only 28 were in AS divisions.

Anyone can confirm this?


Edit: since the 2 Libyan Divisions are considered "Complete" that means already there 16 guns of 28. Remain 12 to distribute eventually by the 4 divisions considered efficient, excluding the 5 considered incomplete. That would mean 3 per 4 AS divisions but probably 3 have 4 AT guns -a full platoon- and the remaining division have nothing , like the other 5 incomplete.
 
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jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I have that the GAF in Africa had 98 AT guns since there were only 127 guns in total (1 of them was in depot) then only 28 were in AS divisions.

My first question is what is the source for the number of c.c. in the GaF.? My second question is what is the date for that information? The entire R.E. only had 928 47/32 c.c. on 1 June 1940. (L'esercito italiano alla viglia della 2ª guerra mondiale p. 245). I would be very surprised that the GaF in A.S. had nearly 10% of the total quantity.

I feel there is a mismatch in dates for the various pieces of information. I could be wrong.

Pista! Jeff
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Various sources give us different numbers. The question is what precisely does each number represent?

Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito p. 252 states the GaF had 347 pieces of 47/32 c.c. in A.S. in 1939.

Some points from Stato di efficienza dell'Esercito al 1° giugno 1940 pp. 526-528.
-Note that complete and efficienti are two different condition/statuses. However, for this discussion, all my sources state that the divisioni in A.S. had their c.c.
-The two d. lib hadn't been formed at that time and are not included in the data. (not listed pp. 526-8 and from other sources).

At this point, I am assuming that the 127 47/32 guns listed in allegato 16b ( In Africa settentrionale La preparazione al conflitto) and copied as allegato 6 in Montanari (Le operazioni in A.S.) reflect the forces minus the GaF. None of the associated charts list the GaF (personnel, units, etc.). At twelve cp. c.c. (8 pieces each) needed in A.S., 96 guns would cover the requirement.

My best thoughts given the current information.

Pista! Jeff
 

Darren Marshall

New Member
Various sources give us different numbers. The question is what precisely does each number represent?

Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito p. 252 states the GaF had 347 pieces of 47/32 c.c. in A.S. in 1939.

Some points from Stato di efficienza dell'Esercito al 1° giugno 1940 pp. 526-528.
-Note that complete and efficienti are two different condition/statuses. However, for this discussion, all my sources state that the divisioni in A.S. had their c.c.
-The two d. lib hadn't been formed at that time and are not included in the data. (not listed pp. 526-8 and from other sources).

At this point, I am assuming that the 127 47/32 guns listed in allegato 16b ( In Africa settentrionale La preparazione al conflitto) and copied as allegato 6 in Montanari (Le operazioni in A.S.) reflect the forces minus the GaF. None of the associated charts list the GaF (personnel, units, etc.). At twelve cp. c.c. (8 pieces each) needed in A.S., 96 guns would cover the requirement.

My best thoughts given the current information.

Pista! Jeff

Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito and Stato di efficienza dell'Esercito al 1° giugno 1940 are from "Ufficio Storico" or are from other publishers?
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
My apologies Darren. I should have made the references clear.

Stato di efficienza dell'Esercito al 1° giugno 1940 pp. 526-528 is the document cited by Dili from L'esercito italiano alla viglia della 2ª guerra mondiale. The document is allegato 43 in that book. That book was published by the USSME.

Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella seconda guerra mondiale is by Filippo Cappellano, a noted historian on the R.E. It was published by Storia Militare in 1998.

Checking In Africa settentrionale La preparazione al conflitto p. 88, it states that the charts in allegati 16, 16a, 16b, and 16c are the forces discussed previously on pp. 86-88. The same is indicated in Le operazioni in A.S. p. 20. GaF aren't discussed as part of the forces listed in those presentations. This reinforces my belief that the number of 47/32 c.c available doesn't reflect those issued to the GaF.

Pista! Jeff
 
Jeff
I do not know where the good Filippo Cappellano has found the data related to the presence in the GAF of 347 pieces from 47/32 in 1939 as the following data that leads (line below) ..... at the end of October 1939 were available a total of 773 pieces .... is in sharp contrast with the figure of 688 presences of the piece from 47/32 reported by the same chaplain in Appendix 6 of the same book (The Artillery of the Royal Army) but unfortunately it is not the only data in contrast in the current literature in the case of the presence on 1/6/1940 of the piece from 47/32 in the Royal Army .... some examples ......
Operations in North Africa (Montanari) Volume 1 Sidi El Barrani (pages 30-31 and following ... extract)
The GAF of the 5th army had (Tunisia) ...
-18 47/32 counter-truck
-you asked for 140 47/32 counter-truck
In the meantime, the army had replaced the required 47/32 with the surplus of 77/28 pieces in warehousing (42 in Tripoli).
The 10th Army Gaf had ... ..
- 23 47/32 counter-truck.
-you asked for 235 47/32 counter-truck.

From the situation of the army 1. June 1940 (Annex 43-pag 536 Tomo Montanari The EI on the eve of the 2nd GM, on the other hand, lacked in total to the GAF 292 pieces out of the 390 expected therefore the GAF in total had 98 pieces of 47 / 32 ????)

and again

In Africa settentrionale La preparazione al conflitto allegato 16b or Le operazioni in A.S. p. 20. + Annex 5 The First Offensive in AS
Main materials sent in AS 16 September -10 December 1940 ...... antitank guns .... n.36 = 163 ????

Mah!!!!!

An other italian hodgepodge???????

All the best
Maurizio
 

Dili

Member
Various sources give us different numbers. The question is what precisely does each number represent?

Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito p. 252 states the GaF had 347 pieces of 47/32 c.c. in A.S. in 1939.

Some points from Stato di efficienza dell'Esercito al 1° giugno 1940 pp. 526-528.
-Note that complete and efficienti are two different condition/statuses. However, for this discussion, all my sources state that the divisioni in A.S. had their c.c.
-The two d. lib hadn't been formed at that time and are not included in the data. (not listed pp. 526-8 and from other sources).

At this point, I am assuming that the 127 47/32 guns listed in allegato 16b ( In Africa settentrionale La preparazione al conflitto) and copied as allegato 6 in Montanari (Le operazioni in A.S.) reflect the forces minus the GaF. None of the associated charts list the GaF (personnel, units, etc.). At twelve cp. c.c. (8 pieces each) needed in A.S., 96 guns would cover the requirement.

My best thoughts given the current information.

Pista! Jeff


I can't agree, how can you explain 120/25 guns that only existed in GAF are listed there?

Also like you say then it is 127+98 = 225 47mm guns , i don't believe there were that kind of numbers in NA.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Maurizio

First questions about your information.

-I read 18 c.c. available in Montanari on p. 30. I do not read 23 c.c. for 10ª armata. Where does 23 guns come from?
-I read 40 75/28 replacing the missing 47/32 c.c. I don't read 42.
-Where does the 32 guns delivered between sett e dec come from?

Dili, Maurizio

We are developing the information as we go. We are comparing sources and information to determine what is correct. Remember that we assumed the GaF had 98 47/32 c.c. I made my statement based on that 'fact'. Now Maurizio has indicated that the GaF had significantly less than 98 guns. Dili has indicated that the number of guns available must include the GaF.

Again, twelve d.f requires 12 cp. c.c. = 96 guns. Plus 18 for the GaF is 114. The two Libyan cp. c.c. were mobilized on 5 nov 1939 (Struttura, uniformi, distintivi ed insegne delle truppe libiche 1912-1943 p. 333). If those are added, that is 130 guns. If Maurizio is correct that the GaF under 10ª armata has 23 guns, that is 153 guns.

At question when did these units receive their full complement of guns if 127 is correct?

Pista! Jeff
 
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Dili

Member
The text says that the GAF should have 390 but 292 did not arrived so remains 98. Now we can believe on this statement or not.

Complete Divisions: only the 2 Libyan
Efficient Divisions : 4 AS these are characterized as: some AT coy with 4 or 6 guns instead of 8 - which implies for Incomplete may be even worse.
Incomplete divisions : 5 AS , 3 CCNN

I want to raise 2 points:

How many GAF fortifications including armored points were ready at 10 June? Maybe getting some quantities there we can get an hint.

Another question is the urgency of sending destroyers to Tobruk with supposed anti tank guns. (some sources state AA) - Since at war start the issues was the French forces in Tunisia would not surprise me that many AT were deployed in GAF fortifications in Tripolitania and the 3 Divisions of XX Corpo which seems to be the best equipped. With almost nothing or even nothing in Cirenaica.


Edit: it is possible that later these 98 guns then were distributed by divisions when the French peril subsided.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
The two Libyan are not listed as complete. In fact, it states the list excludes the two Libyan [Totale complessivo: 71 (non comprese le due libiche) p. 527)]. I see you have changed the data to reflect the disbanding of the « 23 aprile » and the forming of the « Catanzaro ».

How many GAF fortifications including armored points were ready at 10 June? Maybe getting some quantities there we can get an hint.

That is discussed on p. 30 in Le operazioni in A.S. as Maurizio posted. Montanari lists how many centri e appostamenti protetti had been built, then stated now many weapons were available to be placed in those fortifications. He lists 84 positions for 47/32 c.c. , then states only 18 pieces available.

I believe all the numbers from the various sources are correct, they just don't identify the same things.

Here are the competing sources for the number of GaF c.c. guns:

L'esercito italiano alla viglia della 2ª guerra mondiale p. 528 states (as Dili has pointed out) "mancano 292 pezzi su 390 (da inviare altri 100 p. entro 15 giugno), ... [missing 292 pieces out of 390 (sending another 100 by 15 June)]. So the math is 98 pieces in the GaF in A.S.

Le operazioni in A.S. p. 30 states 18 pieces (see above). The reply to Balbo's 11 May 1940 letter (allegato 9) dated 13 May states that 390 pieces c.c. are requested, of which 120 would be sent (which includes 50 pieces originally sold to Romania).

Ibid p. 475 memo dated 10 July from the Ministero delle Guerra states that 'all the units' authorization, including G.a.F., of their 47 and 20 pieces will be completed' (saranno completate tutte le dotazioni di reparto, compresa G.a.F., di pezzi da 47 e da 20.). This indicates that the units were still lacking some c.c. in July.

Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito p. 252 states 347 pieces, but I believe everyone agrees that number is wrong.

it is possible that later these 98 guns then were distributed by divisions when the French peril subsided.

If feel that is certainly possible and likely. However, the four divisions sent to A.S. in Sep. 1939 (« Brescia », « Bologna », « Pavia », and « Savona ») should have had their cp. c.c.

Pista! Jeff
 

Dili

Member
The two Libyan are not listed as complete. In fact, it states the list excludes the two Libyan [Totale complessivo: 71 (non comprese le due libiche) p. 527)].

You are correct , i was taking my information from here

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/ramius/Militaria/forza_esercito_10_giugno_1940.html
He might have made a mistake.

Allegato 4 lists 98 guns in R. Corpo Truppe Libiche , in theory each Libyan division should have 56 guns so should have been at least 112 . Missing 14. Since there were some guns in some presidios that might have not be part of 2 Libyan divisions troops the missing guns might be higher, but not by much.


I see you have changed the data to reflect the disbanding of the « 23 aprile » and the forming of the « Catanzaro ».

Yes.



Le operazioni in A.S. p. 30 states 18 pieces (see above). The reply to Balbo's 11 May 1940 letter (allegato 9) dated 13 May states that 390 pieces c.c. are requested, of which 120 would be sent (which includes 50 pieces originally sold to Romania).

In that text the 390 pieces are all GAF ? i am trying to find if there is some kind of discrepancy in AT guns "ownership" because it seems a very big number for the GAF. In Vigilia book it is clearly stated it is GAF, but maybe in other books it does not.


Now Maurizio has indicated that the GaF had significantly less than 98 guns.
from an earlier post.

Those Maurizio numbers of AT guns 18 in Tripolitania, 23 in Cirenaica is for what date? because the danger being the French i found it a bit strange.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
i was taking my information from here

I see. Note he only lists twelve cp. c.c. for Comando Superiore FF.AA. A.S.I.

Allegato 4 lists 98 guns in R. Corpo Truppe Libiche , in theory each Libyan division should have 56 guns so should have been at least 112 . Missing 14. Since there were some guns in some presidios that might have not be part of 2 Libyan divisions troops the missing guns might be higher, but not by much.

The d.lib. only has 24 guns in the artillery gruppi. There are no armi d'accompagnamento in the raggruppamenti. So 24 artillery pieces (75/28) and 8 c.c. (47/32) (Le esercito italiano tra la 1ª e la 2ª guerra mondale p. 185 fn 1 e p. 315; Struttura, uniformi, distintivi ed insegne delle truppe libiche 1912-1943 pp. 36-37). The remaining pieces listed in allegato 4 are various units that are not part of the d. lib. (Struttura, uniformi, distintivi ed insegne delle truppe libiche 1912-1943 p. 333).

In that text the 390 pieces are all GAF ?

No, that is the total request for FF.AA. A.S. So Comando A.S. was stating the need for 390 c.c. How many were for the G.a.F. and for the maneuver forces is unknown at this time.

Those Maurizio numbers of AT guns 18 in Tripolitania, 23 in Cirenaica is for what date? because the danger being the French i found it a bit strange.

Not strange if you don't have the guns. Just because France was seen as a threat doesn't mean the Italians were able to provide the perceived resources. Everything about the R.E. is knowing what they need but not having the means to provide what is needed. :)

Pista! Jeff
 
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Dili

Member
I see. Note he only lists twelve cp. c.c. for Comando Superiore FF.AA. A.S.I.

12 cp is 96 guns in what kind of units are the remaining 28?
Note also only 23 batteries of 65/17 + 1 batt camellata that means 96 guns but i have 124 in units


The d.lib. only has 24 guns in the artillery gruppi. There are no armi d'accompagnamento in the raggruppamenti. So 24 artillery pieces (75/28) and 8 c.c. (47/32) (Le esercito italiano tra la 1ª e la 2ª guerra mondale p. 185 fn 1 e p. 315; Struttura, uniformi, distintivi ed insegne delle truppe libiche 1912-1943 pp. 36-37). The remaining pieces listed in allegato 4 are various units that are not part of the d. lib. (Struttura, uniformi, distintivi ed insegne delle truppe libiche 1912-1943 p. 333).

I also adding 2 bty 65/17 but it seems was mistaken:

Divisione Libica (7.200 effettivi) - from Ramius
Comando di Divisione
2 Raggruppamenti Fanteria Libica
Compagnia Comando
3 Battaglioni Fanteria Libici
Batteria d'Accompagnamento da 65/17 Divisionale
Raggruppamento Artiglieria Libica
Reparto Comando
2 Gruppi Cannoni da 77/28
Batteria Controaerea da 20/65
Reparto Munizioni e Viveri
Battaglione Misto Genio Libico

Plotone Comando
Compagnia Genio Artieri
Compagnia Genio Telegrafisti e Radiotelegrafisti
Sezione Genio Fotoelettricisti
Servizi Divisionali

etc.

Some difference for this http://www.niehorster.org/019_italy/40_organ/div_libica_40.html

So either 4+24+8=36 Ramius or 24+16+8=48 Nierhorster

No, that is the total request for FF.AA. A.S. So Comando A.S. was stating the need for 390 c.c. How many were for the G.a.F. and for the maneuver forces is unknown at this time.

Interesting, In Vigilia book it gives the idea that the 390 are GAF guns.

Not strange if you don't have the guns. Just because France was seen as a threat doesn't mean the Italians were able to provide the perceived resources. Everything about the R.E. is knowing what they need but not having the means to provide what is needed. :)

My point is a bigger AT gun quantity in Cirenaica than in Tripolitania, so that gave me the suspicion if it wasn't at another later date after French surrender.
 

Slavomir

New Member
Those Maurizio numbers of AT guns 18 in Tripolitania, 23 in Cirenaica is for what date?
The number of the guns for Tripolitania is given for 1 June.

I would like to draw your attention to one more isue. On p. 20, (Le operazioni...) Montanari writes that there were only 60% of 47/32 required for AT coys in divisions (if I understand it corectly).

Regards

Slawek
 
Also for Cirenaica (1 June 1940) .......but 1 or 10 dont make the difference ....in June (19) only 36 47/32 went in AS ...........
All the best
Maurizio
 
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