65a Divisione Fanteria Granatieri di Savoia

[Hardrada55]

I am a little perplexed by the organization of the 65a Divisione Fanteria Granatieri di Savoia and the sub-units of which it was composed. Please correct any misunderstandings I may have and if you have information about the Granatieri di Savoia Division please share it with me. I have seen reference to the 65a Divisione Fanteria Granatieri di Savoia being, not a combat formation itself, but an administrative formation for Italian “national” or non-native military units in the AOI (along with the 40th d’Africa Division). But, the 65a Divisione Fanteria Granatieri di Savoia was organized as, and listed among, the regular Italian infantry divisions. The 65th Division never fought as a complete combat unit itself, but the units of which the 65th was composed were doled out piece-meal to where ever they were needed in the AOI at the time. Were the Granatieri di Savoia organized exactly like any other Italian infantry division? Were there mortar companies and recon scouts and infantry gun batteries in the headquarter battalions and companies?

 

[jwsleser]

The 65ª d. «Granatieri di Savoia» was a regular division and organized as any other d. fanteria. The division did have features that reflected the organization of metropolitan units stationed in the colonies that were different from those units in Italy. The main differences was a btg. mitragieri replaced the btg. mortai (this was done in the d. aut. tipo A.S.), and the artillery was two gruppi someggiati da 65/17 instead of the common mix of two gruppi da 75/27 and one gruppo da 100/27. 81mm mortars were in short supply so the infantry regiments only had their 45mm Brixias.

in 1938, the 10º rgt gra. replaced its III btg. with the btg. alp. «Uork Amba». The 11º rgt. gra. replaced its III btg. with a btg. bersaglieri. I feel that this was done to give the unit greater capabilities in an isolated theater. The «Uork Amba» was likely a true btg. alpina, having been part of the 5ª d. alp. «Pusteria» and remained in Ethiopia after the division returned home to Italy. I have never identified whether the btg. bersaglieri was a true btg. ber. or whether the III/11 rgt. gra. was simply renamed.

The unique force mix in the A.O.I. caused the division to be used as a theater reserve. Considered more reliable, the units were therefore parceled out as needed so to maintain some level of reserves near the capital.

Pista! Jeff

 

[Hardrada55]

The 65a Granatieri di Savoia Divisione Fanteria was activated on October 6, 1936 in Italy. Were the original Grenadiers transferred to the 65th from the Granatieri di Sardegna regiments? What was the relationship (if any) between the Granatieri di Savoia and the Granatieri di Sardegna?

 

[jwsleser]

The 10º rgt. gra. was raised by the depot of the 1º rgt. gra., while the 11º rgt. gra. was raised by the depot of the 2º rgt. gra. I don't know if replacements/annual conscripts were processed at those depots in Italy or whether the two rgt. Granatieri in the A.O.I. had their own depots.

It will take some research in the archives to discover the logic behind the creation of this new division and the support dependencies for the unit.

Pista! Jeff

 

[Hardrada55]

Thank you, that's interesting about the origin of the 10th and 11th regiments. I read somewhere that the 350 Grenadiers at the defense of Massawa in 1941 were from the 11th Regiment's training battalion. The picture is supposed to be of the ceremony activating the 10th Regiment at Modena in 1936.

 

[jwsleser]

The official history, Le operazioni in Africa orientale, lists the unit as the XI btg. di formazione granatieri. A btg. formazione is usually a temporary ad hoc unit, while the depot battalion would normally be a btg. complementi. That being said, I have read the two terms being used interchangeably with the btg. fomazione indicating a mobile unit created by troops from the btg. complementi.

As you have implied, it is likely the btg. complementi was indeed in the A.O.I. The next question would be whether the annual conscripts came from the madrepartria or recruit locally in the A.O.I.

Pista! Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

The 65th Grenadier Division of Savoy had a partially different composition from the other Italian infantry divisions of the time. Formed by veterans of the various Italian colonial campaigns of the period before the war, it was composed like the other Italian infantry divisions of the time of two regiments which however contained two grenadier battalions each and an Alpine battalion the 10th (Uork Amba) and a Bersaglieri l '11.o (Bersaglieri battalion of the AOI) . However, in addition to its own CCNN Legion, the artillery regiment, the divisional engineers and services, it had a machine-gun battalion instead of a mortar battalion. The artillery regiment was also anomalous being formed by 3 groups of 65/17, a group of 100/17 and a group of 105/28 as well as a battery of 3 pieces of 149/35. However, the departments never fought in an organic way being dismembered and used to "plug holes" here and there ......... ah I forgot the 10th regiment was mobilized in Rome not in Modena ......
all the best
Maurizio

 

[diciassette2000]

Indeed I will say more I am almost certain that those are Prince Umberto, the prefect Giacone, senior army officers, hierarchs and soldiers lined up in front of the government building in Littoria on the occasion of the ceremony of the delivery of the flag to the 10th regiment of the Grenadiers leaving for East Africa
All the best
Maurizio

 

[Hardrada55]

Thank you for the insights Maurizio and Jeff. I found an article recently published by Bastian Matteo Scianna very interesting. "Losing an Empire: Fascist Italy's Defeat on the Horn of Africa..."

All of this is just my flawed understanding. The 65a supposedly underwent reorganization consistent with the reforms of General Alberto Pariani between 1938 and 1940. As I understand it this “Pariani order” converted the Italian infantry divisions from “Triangular” divisions with three infantry regiments to “Binary” divisions with only two infantry regiments. The 65th seems to be anticipating this change to a binary configuration by a couple of years because they only had two infantry regiments to begin with. General Pariani accomplished this conversion from “triangular” to “binary” divisions by disbanding the Infantry Brigade Headquarters and then removing one of the infantry regiments and one of the artillery groups from each infantry division. These “extra” infantry and artillery regiments were used to create more (but weaker) infantry divisions. I think I read that the Granatieri di Savoia Division’s Infantry Brigade Headquarters was disbanded in February of 1938, is this so? And the I Battalion of the 10th Regiment sent to China in 1937 and 1938 went directly back to Italy and disbanded? It wasn't sent back to the AOI. I think it was after that the 65a got the Uork Amba Alpini and the Bersaglieri Battalions. I don’t think the division ever had any more than the two infantry regiments, the 10th and 11th Granatieri.

 

[diciassette2000]

The Savoy Grenadier Brigade Command was dissolved together with the other undivided brigade commands following the entry into force of the Pariani order, while the two grenadier regiments were placed under the direct command of the Division Command. In fact it would seem that before returning to Italy (December 28, 1938) the 1st battalion of the brigade together with the brigade command participated in the international police service during the Sino-Japanese conflict of 1937 (in the Shanghai international area). The 1st Battalion of the 10th Grenadier Regiment then returned to Italy.
All the best
Maurizio

 

[diciassette2000]

No correction, I read my notes better .... the brigade command was dissolved in AOI in 1938 following the Pariani reform while the 1st battalion of the 10th regiment had already gone to China on its own together with part of the regiment of Marina San Marco for the well-known police operations in that country...
All the best
maurizio

 

[Hardrada55]

I think it's interesting that 65a Granateri di Savoia was activated in 1936, two years before the Pariani order, with a Brigade Command headquarters and only two regiments instead of three like all the other Fanteria Divisione. I thought all the 1936 divisions had machine gun battalions as the third battalion in each regiment and in addition a divisional machine gun battalion.... with a mortar company to be found....somewhere? Brigade headquarters?

 

[jwsleser]

I have separated the discussion of the d. binaria to its own thread as it has morphed into a different topic.

Divisioni binaria

The binary division were not a news of the Ordinamento Pariani, they born in the Ordinamento Baistrocchi in 1934, see the 31a divisione Caprera

comandosupremo.com

 

[Hardrada55]

In late 1938 or early 1939, the 10º rgt gra. disbanded its I btg. and replaced it with the btg. alp. "Uork Amba". Did the 11º rgt. gra. ever have three battaglione of Granatieri like the 10º rgt gra.? Did 11º rgt. gra. lose one of the battalions of Granatieri similarly to the 10º rgt gra. or did it always have just two battalions?

 

[jwsleser]

Both regiments (10º e 11º rgt gra.) originally had three btg. gra. Both regiments had its III btg. gra. changed/replaced in August 1938 with its respective unit type (alpina for the 10º rgt., bersaglieri for the 11º rgt.). The I e II btg. gra. remained unchanged.

See L'Esercito Italiano vero il 2000 v.2, part 1, pp.49–50.

Do you have a source that states otherwise?

Pista! Jeff

 

[Hardrada55]

No. The only thing I had come upon was in reference to the 10th Regiment Granateri. I have never seen anything about the 11th Regiment Granateri and whether it had three Battalions. When did 11th Regiment go from three battalions to two battalions? The same time as 10th Regiment?

 

[jwsleser]

I sense that we are not communicating clearly.

In terms of the 10º e 11 º rgt., both always had three battalions. The only thing that changed was that after August 1938 the regiments had two granatieri battalions and one speciality battalion (alpina or bersaglieri).

When did 11th Regiment go from three battalions to two battalions? The same time as 10th Regiment?

Both regiments had its III btg. gra. changed/replaced in August 1938 with its respective unit type (alpina for the 10º rgt., bersaglieri for the 11º rgt.). The I e II btg. gra. remained unchanged.

 

[Hardrada55]

You are correct. I am doing a bad job of communicating. I should have said "I have never seen anything in print or online about whether the 11th Regiment ever had three Granateri battalions. If it did, when did 11th Regiment go from three Granateri battalions to two Granateri battalions?" Sorry

 

[jwsleser]

Thank you for the clarifiction.

All l can point to is the the Italian Army's lineage history that I cited above states both regiments were originally organized with three btg. granatieri, and then states that the third battalions were replaced/converted by the two speciality battalions. It is also the only place I have read about the I/10º rgt. serving in Shangai, but it is a period I haven't researched.

Given the lack of any real history written on these regiments in Italian works, it is not surprising that there is little available on the internet. There isn't a divisional history of the d. Granatieri di Savoia and I am not aware of work for the 21ª d.gra. It is interesting that both of these divisions are not included in Battistelli's Mussolini's Army at War, but are included in the army's lineage series.

I committed an error in my first post. The divisione Granatieri di Savoia was never a numbered division. I fell back on my memory from years ago where someone attributed the division as the 65ª. The divisione d'Africa was also unnumbered.

 

[Hardrada55]

Here are some pictures I've gleaned from the internet about the 1 Btg of 10th Regiment in Shanghai in 1938. The newspaper article is especially informative.