65a Divisione Fanteria Granatieri di Savoia

[jwsleser]

Thank you for posting this information. Yes the article is interesting. It also raised a question.

The article states that the commander, Enrico Andreini, was a colonel. Hummm? When I read about the Shanghai mission in L'Esercito Italiano, it stated he was captain (p.49). Now a colonel was higher than the normal rank for battalion command, but a captain was too low. So I decided to Google.

I discover a book by Enzo Cataldi titled I Granatieri di Sardegna (so much for my thought that there wasn't a book). The book does cover the Granatieri di Savoia and on page 913 is gives his rank as lieutenant colonel. That is the normal ranks for a battalion commander. Generals.dk states that Andreini was promoted to colonel in 1937. Which is correct?

At this point I believe he was a colonel.

Now I Granatieri di Sardegna also states that the two regiments were originally (it doesn't say anything different) as two granatieri battalion and one speciality battalion ("I due reggimenti Granatieri di Savoia furono cosi ordinati: il 10ª su due Battaglioni di granatieri ed un III battaglione di alpini; l’11º su due Battaglioni di granatieri ed un III battaglione di bersaglieri; fermo restando un Deposito ciascuno." p.910)

Well, what to believe?
.

​

 

[Francoquarter]

I found this https://www.granatieridisardegna.it/Libri/cina.pdf

Andreini was lieutenant col. when go to China but get the colonel rank there the 1st november '37

 

[Hardrada55]

So much information is incomplete or contradictory....This blurb from a 1941 Hawaiian newspaper is obviously wrong because DK says he wound up a prisoner of the Germans.

 

[Hardrada55]

I found I Granatieri di Sardegna. Thank you. Granatieri di Sardegna also says, (via machine translation) the Granatieri were raised..."on two Regiments each on three Grenadier Battalions and an accompanying Battery as well as a depot; and was made to flow into East Africa".

Significantly I Granatieri di Sardegna later states that "The Grenadier Division of Savoy assumed for its part in August 1938, after a series of transformations, the following formation:

Command

10th and 11th Grenadier Regiments

XV Blackshirts of Africa

Battalion Group of Knight Squadrons of Neghelli, with two knight squadrons and one fast chariot squadron

60th Artillery Regiment on two Groups and a depot

Counter-aircraft group Black Shirts of Africa

Position artillery group

Colonial depot with military district function

I believe that it is the 1938 disbanding of the first battalion from the 10th and 11th Regiments (probably along with other modifications) that is being referred to by the phrase "after a series of transformations". So I think that in 1936 when the 10th and 11th Granatieri Regiments were formed they consisted of three Granatieri battalions each, but that by 1938, the first battalions of each of the regiments were recalled to Italy, as was Colonel Andreini, and (??) reintegrated into the the 21st Grenatieri di Sardegna division. Additionally, the information that Granatieri di Savoia had an integral black shirt anti-aircraft group is new to me. And also, I wonder with what artillery was the "Positional Artillery Group" equipped?

 

[jwsleser]

Why do you believe the I btg. of the two regiments were disbanded or returned to Italy in 1938? What is your source? I don't believe that is correct.

The object of that entire section of the book you are citing concerning transformations is about the division, not the regiment. The modifications were changes in the typical divisional structure, not regimental beyond the know substitution of the III btg. The addition of the colonial cavalry unit that included a CV33 squadron, the substitution of a btg. mortai with a btg. mitr., a completely different artillery regimental structure, etc. are the changes in the divisional structure driven by the needs of colonial warfare.

You are stating several things without offering any sources. You could be correct, but all the sources we have currently cited don't support your statements.

 

[Hardrada55]

You are correct about me not citing sources. I have gotten careless and will do better and remember to note my sources and refer to them in my posts. I have notes from sources I've looked at recently on the net. Give me a little time and I will find and provide the sources I read. Until I provide sources, here is a translation I saved into my notes on the subject. I only have information about the I Btg of 10th Reggimento. I have not found anything about the I Btg of the 11th Reggimento.

"The 65th Grenadier of Savoia Division was stood up on October 6, 1936."

"The whole 10th Grenadier Regiment arrived in Massawa from Naples in November 1936 on the Liguria." This may not be true, based on what I think I read in I Granatieri Sardegna about the Granatieri di Savoia, which if I remember right says the first units to arrive in Massawa were the I Btg, 10th Regiment and the 10th Regiment headquarters.

"After less than 9 months in the AOI, the I Battalion of the 10th Grenadier Regiment left Massawa on August 27, 1937 on the liner Conte Biancamano for Shanghai. On the same day, the cruiser Raimondo Montecuccoli sailed from Naples for Shanghai with a reinforcing contingent of San Marco Marines."

"The I Battalion 10th Grenadier Regiment left Shanghai aboard the liner Conte Verde on November 28, 1938 after more than a year of service in the Far East. It arrived in Brindisi on December 20 and continued on to Naples, where it was disbanded."

"Simultaneously with the dissolution of the I Battalion, the II and III Battalions changed their numbers and became the I and II Battalions respectively."

 

[jwsleser]

Thank you for the additional information. I now understand what happened. Yes, technically the I btg. was the one replaced. We are looking at a typical peacetime paper drill.

The key is the sequence of events. All the sources are correct.

The I/10ª rgt. gra. was sent to China at the end of 1937. In August 1938 the two regiments were reorganized with the third battalion changed from a btg. granatieri to a speciality battalion. The I/10ª gra. was still in China, but the btg. alpini «Uork Amba» was already in the A.O.I. When the I btg. was scheduled to return to A.O.I. from China, many of the men had completed their conscript service and were due to be discharged. Rather than send the I btg. back to the A.O.I. and then discharge the men and transport them back to Italy, it was simpler to send the battalion back to Italy and discharge the men there. Two btg. gra. of the 10º rgt. were still in the A.O.I., so just renumber them and add the new III btg and the reorganization was complete.

Your source was the link Francoquarter posted above.

 

[jwsleser]

As a follow up, there is no indication that the I/11º rgt. gra. was the one replaced by a btg. ber. Unlike the 10º rgt. gra., the 11º rgt. had all three battalions present at the time of the reorganization. It wouldn't be easier to disband the I btg. and then renumber the II e III btg. Just think about all that unnecessary paperwork when all one needed to do was disband the III btg. Not definitive proof, but I feel the III btg. was the unit disbanded.

On a side note, it appears that Andreini's entry in Generals.dk has a error. It states that he commanded the 51ª d.f «Siena» in 1943, yet all my sources show generale di divisione Anglico Carta commanded the «Siena».

 

[jwsleser]

After a little more digging, one forum has a post that states that Andreini took command of the piazza at Athens after he was promoted to generale di brigade. He was captured there in 1943. https://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=61604656

I don't have any sources that discusses the occupation of Athens at that time.