88/35 AA gun in Italy

[jwsleser]

Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:26 PM by Dili

In http://www.regioesercito.it/reparti/artiglieria/intervento.htm

Says that 9 batteries 88/35 were sent by Germany for DICAT. Anyone knows when they arrived?

Posted 13 July 2009 - 01:46 PM by Gian

From Wikipedia (I hope this is the stuff you're looking for).

In June 1939 Italy had large credits (about 300 millions Lire of the time) in Germany for the sale of finished goods, so the Italian War Department proposed to extinguish such credits with the allottment of 50x 88mm Flak batteries and related ammunition. The proposal was accepted, event though the Germans pointed out that such quantity of guns was not available. So, the debt was partly extinguished with 88 Flak (88/55 in Italian nomenclature) and partly with 75 mm M37(t) guns (75/50 in the Italian designation). The proposal put forward by German authorities included the supply of Italian-made spare parts for anti-aircraft and anti-tank guns, therefore the production of artillery spares was started in the Ansaldo (Genoa and Pozzuoli) and OTO works. The batteries were provieded complete with Zeiss 36 fire adjustment unit (the so called Kommandogerät) and auxiliary apparatuses.

Deliveries started a few days after Italy's entry in the war: they were first allotted to the MACA (anti-aircraft MVSN) for the protection of the largest cities; others were sent to Libya for harbor defence. Some groups were later assigned to motorized artillery units, yet it was soon evident that Regio Esercito had no tractor suitable for the tow of the 88 gun since the task was committed to Lancia 3RO vehicles with no for-wheel drive. At the end of 1940, 44 guns and the related fire adjustment units had been delivered. Starting from October 1942 several batteries, although remaining in German possession, were manned by Italian personnel (both officers and men) for the defence of military bases and cities; this custom was further intensified in 1943, reaching a peak of 100 batteries. Further than the armament coming through the channels established in 1940, 24 more guns and as many SdKfz 7 tractors were transferred in 1943 to equip the 1st MVSN Armored Division. In the Regio Esercito, the 88/55 gun was used in its customary role, e.g. Flak, whereas the use as an AT weapon was limited to North Africa (Libya and Tunisia) and only in few motorized groups ("Gruppi Autocampali").

Posted 13 July 2009 - 07:35 PM by Dili

Nope but thanks. Note this were DICAT/MACA guns.Anyway in that site says 88/35, unless another typo they are different guns.

Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:58 PM by Franco

88/35 it's clearly a missprint for 88/55 (italian name of german 88/56). i know from other source that 88/55 were imported for DICAT

Posted 13 August 2010 - 01:25 PM by Dili

Thanks, do you know any more detail? DICAT/MACA is a very elusive topic. I have only conflicting numbers of 175 to 234 batteries at 10 June start. And conflicting numbers of guns too. Probably some data includes units out mainland others not.

Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:54 PM by Franco

i've a DICAT with 234 btryes (source "La Regia Aeronautica 1939-1943" of N. Arena volume I) of this 9 (36 guns) with 88/55 the other modern guns are 480 76/40 and 28 75/48. the Dicat covered also Lybia.
also with anti aircraft work there were 239 btryes of DCA (crews were both milmart (149 btryes) and RM (90))
the guns were 14 100/47, 309 76/40, 84 102/45, 32 90/50.
the DAT (RA) had only 8mm and 20mm in airport defence in north africa
the RE (field) had 18 88/55, 84 75/51, 76 75/46

75/51 maybe a wrong in the source i don't think the RE bought guns from french before of war

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 14 August 2010 - 01:35 AM by Dili

Niehorster lists(in mainland):

7ºLegione(Brescia) 2 batteries
4ºLegione(Allessandria) 7 batteries
5ºLegione(Milano) 30 batteries
8ºLegione(Verona) 2 batteries
1ºLegione(Torino) 22 batteries
11ºLegione(Trieste) 2 batteries
6ºLegione(Piacenza) 6 batteries
12ºLegione(Bologna) 3 batteries
13ºLegione(Livorno) 2 batteries
14ºLegione(Firenze) 3 batteries
16ºLegione(Terni) 2 batteries
18ºLegione(Roma) 24 batteries
15ºLegione(Ancona) 3 batteries
20ºLegione(Bari) 3 batteries
19ºLegione(Napoli) 13 batteries
10ºLegione(Udine) 2 batteries
3ºLegione(Genova) 24 batteries
2ºLegione(Savona) 3 batteries
22ºLegione(Palermo) 13 batteries
21ºLegione(Catanzaro) 1 batteries
17ºLegione(Cagliari) 6 batteries
9ºLegione(Padova) 2 batteries

making 175

-Outside this i have III Gruppo Dicat at Zara-probably 3 batteries
-Another batterie listed in Fiume, would be one from Legione of Trieste?
-I have also a great deal of confusion about AA units in Elba island, some appear Dicat others Milmart. Under what legion would they be?

75/48 i have it a Skoda gun of mysterious origin, but Grifo Arcieri http://www.grifoarci...ult.asp?pid=162 calls them:cannoni da 75/48 (75/50) S.K.
that fits because 28 75/50 arrived in 1940. But in July they formed XLI, XLII,XLIII,XLIV Gruppos of the Army, so were they moved from MACA to the Army?

Did DCA had already 90/50 in 10 June or was still an order? And where they would be? i have references about the rounds fired from land based AA in attack of Taranto and none was 90mm. La Spezia? But i have La Spezia w/40 guns 90/53 only in 1943.

I have an alegatto for 01June Africa and lists 10 guns(4 in Libia West, 6 in Lybia East)for Regia Aeronautica in Líbia, so there probably Regia Aeronautica had only 10x20mm for airport defense.

Your data about Regio Esercito can't be June 40. The 88mm for Regio Esercito only arrived in October.

Sometimes there are references to old 88mm i wonder if 88/35(http://www.navweaps....mm-35_skc00.htm) sometimes 88/30 sometimes appears too.

Your list lacks the 76/45 any reason? How they could get 232 76/45 in a couple months? Taken from navy?

At end 1940( from Grifo Arcieri link above ) DICAT:
MG 8mm S. Etienne n. 4286;
cannoni da 20 modello 35 n. 204;
cannoni da 20 Oerlikon campali n. 75;
cannoni da 20 Oerlikon da posizione n. 100;
cannoni da 75/27 A.V. n. 94;
cannoni da 75/48(75/50) S.K. n. 28;
cannoni da 76/40 n. 212;
cannoni da 76/40 modello 35 n. 268
cannoni da 76/45 n. 232;
cannoni da 77/28 contraerei n. 90;
cannoni da 88 L.56 modello 36 n. 6; (avuti dalla Germania),
cannoni da 90/53 n. 20.

It still lists the 75/48(75/50) with Dicat, and only 6 modern 88mm at end of 40.

http://www.regioesercito.it/reparti/art ... rvento.htm
lists for DICAT(i suppose before end 1940 so earlier than grifoarcieri):
4.270 mitragliatrici da 8 St. Etienne,
76 complessi da 20 mod. 39,
batteries: (at 4 guns per batterie)
6 da 75/27, (24 guns)
12 da 77/28, (48 guns)
147 da 76/40, (588 guns)
54 da 76/45, (216 guns)
6 da 102/35, (24 guns)
9 da 88/35, (36 guns) old models? typo for 88/55 so new but on order? already operational?

Posted 14 August 2010 - 01:49 AM by Dili

For Milano
When bombed by Armstrong Withley's in Aug1940 3.164 colpi da 76/40, 904 da 75/45(typo for 76/45), 154 da 20mm 1.407 da 8mm.

For British Night attack in Taranto
1.430 proiettili da 102 mm, 313 da 100, 6.845 da 76, 4.901 dalle mitragliere di tutti i calibri

Foto of 76/45 in Milano http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p;=1456089

Posted 14 August 2010 - 10:31 AM by Franco

probably this is situation few months before war "A metà marzo del 1940 lo Stato Maggiore ebbe ordine di compilare un progetto per il rinnovamento delle artiglierie, ormai superate."
88/35 it's clearly misprint for 88/55 "9 batterie da 88/35 cedute dalla Germania (le sole di tipo moderno)"

Posted 14 August 2010 - 03:31 PM by Dili

the list not include libia maybe this explain difference, edit afaik elba was milmart unit

I think 50-60 batteries in Libia is impossible, besides that would be 200-240 guns. I don't have that margin in my Lybian gun numbers . In allegato i have with forces in Libia there is no DICAT. Navy has 158 guns and Airforce 10 guns. All rest is Army/GAF, 1801 in total including those in magazzino(Depot). Of this Army guns the AAA are 12x76/40, 8x76/45 27x75/27CK(autocannoni), 209x20mm.

90/50 was not he 90/53 guns, they were few probably they were not a Taranto o La Spezia

True but confusion is common, source is http://www.poetsgulf.it/ and lists all batteries. At start it seems there was none. Do you have access to Clerici book? it might have something about 90/50 and where they were deployed at war start.

I think that Italians never got 88/35

I think i am getting somewhere http://xoomer.virgilio.it/ramius/Milita ... e_2gm.html

lists 36 88/56 plus 84 ordinati maybe this would be RE+DICAT(Gruppos XVIII, XXIX formed Set40 in Germany, also XXXI and i think XXX w/88/55 but all army units) now maybe the guns moved from Dicat to the Army, wht do you think.

also lists 88/30 captured from Yugoslavia

this list it's same of my source but oerlikon, 76/45, 90/53 and the different on number of 88/55, i known that my source it's easy to wrong but i think that was a original sum of difference source (and one it's my).
for the 76/40 as you can see in the grifo list my source list two different model so i think that one it's a misprint for 76/45 . for the 88/55 i think a missprint

As you can see in Grifo site 76/40(probably earlier models) nº 212 + 76/40 mod 35 nº268 = 480 this fits with your source 76/40 number. Your source just lacks the 232 x 76/45.

88/35 it's clearly misprint for 88/55 "9 batterie da 88/35 cedute dalla Germania (le sole di tipo moderno)"

agreed.

Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:21 PM by Franco

I think 50-60 batteries in Libia is impossible, besides that would be 200-240 guns. I don't have that margin in my Lybian gun numbers . In allegato i have with forces in Libia there is no DICAT. Navy has 158 guns and Airforce 10 guns. All rest is Army/GAF, 1801 in total including those in magazzino(Depot). Of this Army guns the AAA are 12x76/40, 8x76/45 27x75/27CK(autocannoni), 209x20mm.

maybe other errors in nierhoster or in my source.
afaik that you indicated 12 76/40 etc ,are not the RE AAA i think this include DICAT afaik 76 are not in RE, i read many times of maca/dicat in libia

True but confusion is common, source is http://www.poetsgulf.it/ and lists all batteries. At start it seems there was none. Do you have access to Clerici book? it might have something about 90/50 and where they were deployed at war start.

sorry i don't find the batteries list and that the 90/50 there was not in La Spezia this is not the same they were not anywhere. i ve not access to Clerici book

I think i am getting somewhere http://xoomer.virgilio.it/ramius/Milita ... e_2gm.html

lists 36 88/56 plus 84 ordinati maybe this would be RE+DICAT(Gruppos XVIII, XXIX formed Set40 in Germany, also XXXI and i think XXX w/88/55 but all army units) now maybe the guns moved from Dicat to the Army, wht do you think.

also lists 88/30 captured from Yugoslavia

ramius page gice alot of info w/o sources, and it's possible that my list it's not for 10 june '40 (or also the ramius list it's not for 10 june '40).
88/30 it's a very old gun and sure not in serivce in june '40 in italy.

As you can see in Grifo site 76/40(probably earlier models) nº 212 + 76/40 mod 35 nº268 = 480 this fits with your source 76/40 number. Your source just lacks the 232 x 76/45.

my source give like grifo 212+268 i summed and i think the grifo add 232 from an other source but i think this are the same of 212 or 268 only in other report with a different time

edit i've not remembered to write that your info that army units were formed in September eventually it's not in contrast that army had 18 guns in june the list give a material list maybe that 88 was a deposit/school or so

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 14 August 2010 - 10:11 PM by Dili

maybe other errors in nierhoster or in my source.
afaik that you indicated 12 76/40 etc ,are not the RE AAA i think this include DICAT afaik 76 are not in RE, i read many times of maca/dicat in libia

This source i have is i think Regio Esercito and maybe GAF, but not RMarina.
and i have LXI,LXII,LXIII,LXIV Gruppos contraereo w/76/40 in Regio Esercito.

And yes it is possible that Nierhorster is incomplete. At least in 21ºLegione (Catanzaro) i know a battery was in Crotone but Nierhorster says there was only one batterie in that legione so that excludes Catanzaro from having one which is strange.

sorry i don't find the batteries list and that the 90/50 there was not in La Spezia this is not the same they were not anywhere. i ve not access to Clerici book

Yes but the 90/50 were the best guns, should be in biggest Naval Bases which were La Spezia and Taranto.
http://www.poetsgulf...s_princ_map.htm go from this link, you have to click the map in all batteries.

ramius page gice alot of info w/o sources, and it's possible that my list it's not for 10 june '40 (or also the ramius list it's not for 10 june '40).
88/30 it's a very old gun and sure not in serivce in june '40 in italy.

Agreed it would have to be 1941, and probably stayed in Yugoslavia for occupation garrisons.

my source give like grifo 212+268 i summed and i think the grifo add 232 from an other source but i think this are the same of 212 or 268 only in other report with a different time

I doubt, see the supposed earlier Regioesercito.it says 147 batteries of 76/40 means 588 guns, grifo+your source says 480, so some batteries had to have less guns than 4 or were consolidated later.
it also says 54 batteries of 76/45 which means 216 guns grifo says 232 so it fits.

i known my english is bad and hard to understand i hope that you can understand, if no tell me i try to explain (and eventually we can ask help at some italian speaking on forum)

No real problems yet. if you find some sentence difficult to write in English, just put it in italian, i can translate.

edit i've not remembered to write that your info that army units were formed in September eventually it's not in contrast that army had 18 guns in june the list give a material list maybe that 88 was a deposit/school or so

But why they waited to September to go to Germany do training and only in October were operational?

Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:20 AM by Franco

This source i have is i think Regio Esercito and maybe GAF, but not RMarina.
and i have LXI,LXII,LXIII,LXIV Gruppos contraereo w/76/40 in Regio Esercito.

i never talking of RM only Dicat, can you give me some info on this gruppi like where they were deployed?

Yes but the 90/50 were the best guns, should be in biggest Naval Bases which were La Spezia and Taranto.
http://www.poetsgulf...s_princ_map.htm go from this link, you have to click the map in all batteries.

i've some trouble with java so i can't use/see the map

I doubt, see the supposed earlier Regioesercito.it says 147 batteries of 76/40 means 588 guns, grifo+your source says 480, so some batteries had to have less guns than 4 or were consolidated later.
it also says 54 batteries of 76/45 which means 216 guns grifo says 232 so it fits.

i found the source for 232 76/45 it's a artillery situation for 1/10/39
(there were also 453 76/40, 82 77/28 94 75/27 in the dicat and 166 75/27 field army)

But why they waited to September to go to Germany do training and only in October were operational?

not ask me, i've laready writed it's not sure the list it's for june maybe it's for september or december, the chapter it's for the DICAT at start of war but the list it's indicated only for a generic 1940

the list on regioesercito
9 batterie da 88/55
6 batterie da 102/35
54 batterie da 76/45
147 batterie da 76/40
12 batterie da 77/28
6 batterie da 75/27

it's a bit strange so low 75/27, and 102/35 they are not at army gun

Posted 15 August 2010 - 07:30 PM by Dili

i never talking of RM only Dicat, can you give me some info on this gruppi like where they were deployed?

No more info. I think the source is Cappellano via a third part. There was also an unknown mixed 77/28+76/40 gruppo in RE. This information is not from war start but i think from late 1942, so this groups might have been formed after June40.

i've some trouble with java so i can't use/see the map

Time to fix it! it is a good site.

not ask me, i've laready writed it's not sure the list it's for june maybe it's for september or december, the chapter it's for the DICAT at start of war but the list it's indicated only for a generic 1940

Ok

it's a bit strange so low 75/27, and 102/35 they are nto at army gun

This is Dicat not RE, but agreed, it is strange. 102/35 is a RM gun, and there were many 75/27. I can think only that concerning 75/27 since it was obsolete most of guns were in depot and when war started that got them back. Do you have any alegatto copies of this?

You said this earlier:

239 btryes of DCA (crews were both milmart (149 btryes) and RM (90))

I can't find a way to have so many batteries with guns numbers i have:

120/27:4
Ansaldo 76/40:309;
102/35:84 ; i have seen other numbers(110, Baganasco says 140, Cappellano says 230!)
Ansaldo 90/50:32 orders?,
Skoda 100/47:14
90/42: ~32
66/47: 18

That makes around 130 batteries w/120 102/35. Not 239 a big difference.

Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:34 PM by Franco

when i writed that field army don't use 76/40 i was talking of june '40 it' possible that late unti had this guns.

dicat it's nor RE but was for under RE for near all (guns incluse).

"my" numbers are diferent (see my post 13/8, 8:54 pm) but even not enough if you take in count only guns 75mm or over, but btryes can have also light guns like 40 or 20 mm or (i not sure) mgs so for my source there were 600 13.2mm, 240 20mm, 310 37mm, 64 40mm (old not bofors)

Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:03 PM by Dili

when i writed that field army don't use 76/40 i was talking of june '40 it' possible that late unti had this guns.

See this http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/4 ... ipoli.html
30° Raggr. Artiglieria Contraerei da Posizione

4 batteries of 76/40 this might be the 12x76/40 and 8x76/45 and Niehorster probably mixed the guns classification giving AA class to 77/28 and fortress gun class to 76/40.

dicat it's nor RE but was for under RE for near all (guns incluse).

OK

my" numbers are diferent (see my post 13/8, 8:54 pm) but even not enough if you take in count only guns 75mm or over, but btryes can have also light guns like 40 or 20 mm or (i not sure) mgs so for my source there were 600 13.2mm, 240 20mm, 310 37mm, 64 40mm (old not bofors)

Typically 13.2 and 20mm were guns for close protection of big gun batteries so they rarely formed independent batteries. I think only 37mm and 40mm can help explain that <40mm=40/39 Vickers Terni , see one in Vizzola Ticino: http://www.navweaps....2pounder_m2.htm

Btw that number 310 batteries for 37mm do you have a date for that? I think only possible in late 42 or 43

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:26 PM by Franco

See this http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/4 ... ipoli.html
30° Raggr. Artiglieria Contraerei da Posizione

4 batteries of 76/40 this might be the 12x76/40 and 8x76/45 and Niehorster probably mixed the guns classification giving AA class to 77/28 and fortress gun class to 76/40.

i think that 30° it's not a CA but a milmart unit or GAF

Typically 13.2 and 20mm were guns for close protection of big gun batteries so they rarely formed independent batteries. I think only 37mm and 40mm can help explain that <40mm=40/39 Vickers Terni , see one in Vizzola Ticino: http://www.navweaps....2pounder_m2.htm

Btw that number 310 batteries for 37mm do you have a date for that? I think only possible in late 42 or 43

the come ever for the list of generic 1940, the navy had 37mm already in mid 30s, talking on ship

Posted 16 August 2010 - 02:45 PM by Dili

i think that 30° it's not a CA but a milmart unit or GAF

That's the name i have for it, sometimes also: 30° Raggr. Artiglieria Costiero e Contraerei da Posizione
It might be a composite unit with subunits from GAF,Milmart, Dicat.

the come ever for the list of generic 1940, the navy had 37mm already in mid 30s, talking on ship

What ship had them in mid 30's? my data only show them in late 30's- 1938-39.

Posted 16 August 2010 - 05:24 PM by Franco

What ship had them in mid 30's? my data only show them in late 30's- 1938-39.

afaik di Giussano and Montecuccoli light cruisers class

Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:49 PM by Dili

yep those had 37/54 from mids, still i found 310 in 1940 suspicious high for a gun that wasn't not cheap. Also only late 30's the single mount appeared.