92 Infantry Regiment In Tunisia Organised As As42?

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By Bob_Mackenzie Posted 10 May 2015 - 09:13 PM

Hi All

Was the 92 Infantry Regiment in Tunisia organised as AS42?

Thanks

Bob

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By Nmao Posted 11 May 2015 - 04:11 PM

I don't think it was organized as AS42.
Superga was being trained for the assault on Malta as a "assault and landing division"

The actual organization I don't know, maybe you know this wargaming page: http://tmaharris.com...s/18th-Axis.htm (i don't know how real it is...)

From another article I found another online (https://groups.googl...wg/QeT2r_Rqk8UJ)

1. Infantry Divisions
Strenght: about 9,500 men each.

Infantry formations to be employed in C3 had a slight different TOE than
usual. Medium howitzers were left in Italy; mortars and AAA were doubled.

To save space on the landing craft, most of the vehicles were deleted. Each Div
had only 24 TL.37 4WD tractors (for the 75/18), 24 light trucks (for
artillery ammo) and 20+ motorbikes. All supplies were to be moved by hand,
for the duration of the battle.

The infantry Div. had two infantry Rgts, each of three infantry Bns, plus an
artillery Rgt.

Each infantry Bn had three infantry Coys (each with 12xLMG) and a MG Coy
(with 8xHMG and 18x45mm mortars).

Each infantry Rgt had a weapons Bn, with one cannon Coy (with 8x47/32) and
two mortars Coys (each with 9x81mm mortars).

The Div had a third independent weapons Bn, organized as the other two. The
47mm in this Bn was officially named "Anti-Tank guns", the other being
"Infantry cannons".

The divisional artillery Rgt had two artillery Grps, each of three Bty (each
with 4x75/18 T.M.) and a AAA Grp of two Btys (each with 8x20/65).

Infantry Division total weapons:
24x75/18 T.M.
24x47/32
16x20/65
54x81mm mortars
108x45mm mortars
48xHMG
216xLMG


regards,

-Nuno

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By Diccisassette2000 Posted 12 May 2015 - 07:26 AM

Yes the Superga division were an AS 42 (reinforced) division.....but like every Italian Regio Esercito unit TOE were lightly modified ...on the road....It's infantry regiments in Tunisia are organised
on AS42 type.

All the best
Maurizio

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By Diccisassette2000 Posted 13 May 2015 - 08:40 AM

Superga's regiments (8/12/1942)
-91.o reggimento:
--102 ufficiali (officiers)
--3162 sottufficiali e truppa (soldiers and private)
--384 quadrupedi (animals)
--6 motocicli (motorcicle solo)
--18 biciclette (bicicle)
--12 pezzi da 47/32 (47/32 aT guns)
--72 mitragliatrici leggere (smg)
--36 mitragliatrici pesanti (mg)
--27 mortai da 45mm (45mm mortars)
--18 mortai da 81mm (81 mm mortars)
--60 autoveicoli (trucks)
-92.o reggimento:
--122 ufficiali
--3438 sottufficiali e truppa
--400 quadrupedi
--11 motocicli
--20 biciclette
--18 pezzi da 47/32
--81 mitragliatrici leggere
--36 mitragliatrici pesanti
--27 mortai da 45mm
--18 mortai da 81mm
--60 autoveicoli (trucks)
All the best
Maurizio
 

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By Nmao Posted 13 May 2015 - 10:24 AM


Great info! Thanks! May I ask the source?
I assume the date is 8 of December, right?

It seems to confirm
Quote
Each infantry Rgt had a weapons Bn, with one cannon Coy (with 8x47/32) and
two mortars Coys (each with 9x81mm mortars).
but 92º seems to have an extra half a/t company (with no additional vehicles).

regards

-Nuno

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By Diciassette2000 Posted 13 May 2015 - 04:52 PM

SME book on 30.o Corpo d'armata Tunisia....the difference was for lost material ....but all the regiments were reformed on AS42 basis.........a very very hard question ...the animals ...perhaps remain in Italy????

All the best
Maurizio

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By Bob_Mackenzie Posted 13 May 2015 - 08:46 PM

Very interesting - thanks for taking the time to copy it out

I am somewhat by the list. I'm sure its an accurate list but as I understand AS.42 each company should have a number of 20mm or 25mm AT weapons. They appear missing from the list, perhaps there were shortages?. AS.42 companies did not have 45mm Mortars. So either they are regimental weapons or the 92nd has a somewhat hybrid organisation?

Can you shed any extra light on this?

Thanks

Bob

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By Diciassette2000
Posted 14 May 2015 - 09:34 AM

Excuse me but I make a mistake........Pistoia division was on AS 1942 type....Superga division was a hybrid and the infantry regiments were so organized (the total weapons and mans that i writhe someday ago it's OK)
-Hq coy
-rock coy (never sent to Tunisia)
-engineer coy (zappatori)
-3xinfantry battalion
--Hq coy
---scout platoon
---flame platoon
---smoke squad
--3xInfantry coy
---Hq platoon
----45mm mortar squad
---3xInfantry platoon 1xsmg each)
---mg platoon (2 squad each 2xMG)
--weapons coy
---platoon Hq
---2x47/32 platoon (2 guns each)
---2x81mm mortar (3x 81mm mortar)

Weapons in battalion=30 smg,12 mG,4 47/32 At guns, 9 45mm mortars,6 81mm mortars.
The animals were retained in Tunisia for the mountain war.
All the best
Maurizio

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By Bob_Mackenzie Posted 14 May 2015 - 05:35 PM

Thanks, Maurizio

That makes much more sense

Could I enquire what a "smoke squad" is please?

Also, I think what is labeled as a "smg" are actually LMG - light machine guns - Fucile Mitragliatore Breda modello 30?

Also, if you will please forgive a supplementary question

1st Company 10th Bersaglieri fought with 92 Infantry at Sened Station. Would you know if the Bersaglieri was organized on AS42?

Thanks

Bob

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By Diciassette2000 Posted 15 May 2015 - 07:43 AM

smoke squad=squadra nebbiogeni=engineers squad with smoke charge....LMG it's right.....10.o reggimento bersaglieri in Tunisia was so organized:
10.o reggimento bersaglieri (colonnello Latini)
-Comando (Hq)
--compagnia comando (Hq coy)
--10.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti (bersaglieri moto-solo coy)
---plotone comando (Hq platoon)
---3xplotone motomitraglieri (3xLMg platoon-6xlmg each)
---plotone mitraglieri (MG platoon-3 MG)
--XVI and XXXIV battaglione bersaglieri (bersaglieri battalions)
--- Plotone comando (hq platoon)
---3xbersaglieri coys (each lmg platoon-6 guns-MG platoon -3 mod35 guns-47/32 platoon-3 47/32 guns-AT rifle platoon-3x20mm Soluthurn guns)
--LXIII battaglione bersaglieri armi accompagnamento (bersaglieri weapons battalion)
---battaglione comando (Hq platoon)
---compagnia mitragliatrici mod.35 (MG coy 9 MG)
---compagnia mortai (mortar coy 9 mortars)
---compagnia antiaerea (20mm AA coy- 8 Breda 20mm guns)
Total of weapons 54lmg,30MG,981mm mortars,1847/32 at guns,820mm guns,18 Atrifles.
The 10.a compagnia motomitraglieri was detached from the reggimento and attached to Imperiali brigade then replaced by the 10.a compagnia motomitraglieri bis with same TOE.
Hope it helps

Are sure that the company of 10.o bersaglieri at Sened was the 1st....in the XXX Corps officially report was writhe......una compagnia del 10.o reggimento (a coy of 10th regiment)...


All the best
Maurizio
If you want other Tunisia campaign info I have some .......Superga's arrive in Tunisia and so on...

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By Diciassette2000
Posted 15 May 2015 - 09:11 AM

View PostBob_Mackenzie, on 14 May 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:
Also, if you will please forgive a supplementary question

1st Company 10th Bersaglieri fought with 92 Infantry at Sened Station. Would you know if the Bersaglieri was organised on AS42?

Thanks

Bob

Interesting question......what's you have (italians) at Sened on january 1943
I have these OOB
23/1/1943 (Sened captured)
-due plotoni della 8.a COMPAGNIA DI FORMAZIONE DELL'8° BERSAGLIERI (two platoons of 8th coy/8.o bersaglieri regiment/Imperiali 50.a brigade)
-1.o squadrone appiedato "Aosta" (1.o Aosta foot squadron)
-69.a batteria da 75/27 (69.a gun battery 75/27)
-a 88mm guns and 2 AA 20mm guns (germany)
-plotone autoblindo "Nizza" (a Nizza recon platoon with 2 armoured cars)
24/1/43 (Sened re-captured by italians)
-15.o battaglione carri (-) (15th tank battalion-)
-334.o battaglione tedesco (334th german recon battalion)
27/1/43 (Sened reinforced)
-Comando 2.o battaglione del 92.o reggimento fanteria (Hq/2.o battaglione /92.o reggimento fanteria)
-6.a e parte della 8.a compagnia del 2.o battaglione del 92.o reggimento fanteria (6th and 8th(-) coys/2nd battalion/92nd rgt)
-15.o battaglione carri M41 (15th tank battalion)
-plotone autoblindo Nizza (Nizza armoured cars platoon-4 armoured cars)
-compagnia mitraglieri 330.o battaglione (MG coy 330th battalion)
-334 Aufklarung abteilung (parts of this battalion, platoon 1st ciclist squadron, 2nd ciclist squadron,3rd stug coy, 2nd platoon/4th weapons coy, AA platoon, AT platoon)
-AA platoon/21 Panzerdivision
-two platoons/III/132.o AT regiment
-in arrive to Sened 1st coy/10.o reggimento bersaglieri (you are right on this matter) and parts of 69.a batteria da 75/27
All the best
Maurizio
 

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By Bob_Mackenzie Posted 15 May 2015 - 05:53 PM

My info about Sened comes from a a very old forum post:

Source is ‘Il corpo XXX d’armata italiano in Tunisia’ pages 111-114.

The original defenders on 30 January are:

92° fanteria II btg. (two cp.)

10° Bersaglieri 1° cp.

CCCXXX GaF

Some tanks from the XV btg. carri.

The enemy attacked on the 31st.

The force was reinforced by the 334th Recce Battalion (German) and at least
one company from the XVII carri, and the 67° btr 75/27 (I have never read of
a battery with this type of number, possibly GaF?). The 8° cp. bersaglieri
covered the right at Oued el Leben.

On the 3rd, the XVII btg. carabinieri and the XXII btg. bersaglieri were
dispatched, which reinforced the occupation of the Sened village. They
repulsed an attack on the 4th.

_____


First to address some points from the earlier posts. XV btg. carri belongs to L bta. speciale, not to Centauro. The btg. remained with the bta. until after the retreat to Enfidaville. As I posted earlier, some tanks from this battalion were present on 30 January-1 February at stazione Sened. So the source of the tanks are known, the actual numbers are not.

The 47/32 c.c. are part of the 92°regg. fanteria and also likely part of the III (Trento)/132° regg. c.c. as well. I don't have my other books here, so I can't check to see how the later btg. is organized.

30 January, Stazione Sened was occupied by II/ 92° fanteria (two companies), the 1°cp./10th Bersaglieri, the 1°cp. of the CCCXXX G.a.F., and some tanks from the XV battalion. I assume the 69° btr. is present as well. This unit was part of the garrison in January, and lost its guns on 1 February at that location. The battery likely returned to stazione Sened when it was recaptured by the Italians on 24 January. A single 88 was part of the garrison that was pushed out on 23 January. There is no indication that the weapon returned.

Village Sened (to the south) was occupied by the III (Trento)/132° regg. c.c. Likey a source of several 47/32 c.c.

As I understand the sequence of events.

The Americans advanced on the 30th and made contact at Stazione Sened and the vilage. They attacked on the 31st, but were repulsed. Bad reports arrived at 5°armata headquarters the night of the 31st. Orders were issued to fall back on Maknassy. General Imperiali intervened and stated the position was holding. Army rescinded the orders, but ordered some units to reinforce L bta. At some point based on these army orders, the 334th German Recce was integrated into the defense, while a company of the XVII carri moved to village Sened.

The Americans attacked again on the 1st of Feb. While not clear in the official, I believe that the 334th started to execute the retreat order (didn't get the word of the change?). This uncovered the position at Stazione Sened, which the Americans captured. The III (Trento) and a cp. carri was still holding the village of Sened, flanking the American position at the stazione. Other Allied attacks on the 1st and 2nd were repulsed. The 21st Panzer was moved to a position northeast of stazione Sened behind the Dj. Goubel.

L bta. was reinforced again by Centauro on 3 Feb. The XVII btg. carabinieri reinforced Imperiali to the east of the stazione, while the XXII btg. bersaglieri reinforced the village Sened.
Another Allied attack on the village was repulsed on 4 Feb. At the same time, General Calvi (Centauro) tried to get the 21st Panzer to attack the stazione from the north. It wasn't until the 7th that the L bta. reoccupied the stazione. No details are provided.


_____

I have done a little more research. Montanari confirms that a 75/27 battery was present on 1 Feb. This battery was without tractors, so was lost went the Axis retreated. The lack of vehicles also caused the loss of the greater portion of the Italian infantry. He also places the 334th Recce bn there as well at the start on 30 Jan. This makes better sense, especially as both books state the battalion was holding the key positions. I am assuming that part of the battalion was at Stazione di Sened, while the remainder likely reinforced on 31 Jan.

Montanari's account has the Italians and the 334th holding until about 1600 on the 1st. Then ten.col. Botigleri was informed by the commander of the 334th Recce group that he had been ordered to retire to Maknassy. The unit pulled out and the Americans attacked again at 1640. Without the weapons provided by the 334th, and the fact that had held the critical position, the defense collapsed. The Americans didn't follow-up.

The back story is that someone (it is not know whom), informed 5th armata that Stazione di Sened had been evacuated on 31 Jan. Reading the start of a large Allied attack, 5th armata began to build a defensive position around Maknassy. When General Sogno (commander of XXX corpo d'armata) received his orders, he reply that the enemy had been repulsed and L bta. still held Sened. Counter orders were issued to correct the changes, but either through error or disregard, the 334th executed the previous orders. It would be interesting to see what the German sources say about this action.
 

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By Bob_Mackenzie Posted 15 May 2015 - 05:58 PM

Very useful info - thanks for posting it

27/1/43 (Sened reinforced)
-Comando 2.o battaglione del 92.o reggimento fanteria (Hq/2.o battaglione /92.o reggimento fanteria)
-6.a e parte della 8.a compagnia del 2.o battaglione del 92.o reggimento fanteria (6th and 8th(-) coys/2nd battalion/92nd rgt)


As I understand it the 8th coy is the weapons coy?


-15.o battaglione carri M41 (15th tank battalion)


There seems some debate as to how much was at the Station de Sened and how much was at sened village. Did this battalion have a 3rd Semovente company?

-plotone autoblindo Nizza (Nizza armoured cars platoon-4 armoured cars)
-compagnia mitraglieri 330.o battaglione (MG coy 330th battalion)


I guess that was 12 NMGs in the company?


-334 Aufklarung abteilung (parts of this battalion, platoon 1st ciclist squadron, 2nd ciclist squadron,3rd stug coy, 2nd platoon/4th weapons coy, AA platoon, AT platoon)


More on this below


-AA platoon/21 Panzerdivision
-two platoons/III/132.o AT regiment
-in arrive to Sened 1st coy/10.o reggimento bersaglieri (you are right on this matter) and parts of 69.a batteria da 75/27


I wonder how many guns?

-334 Aufklarung abteilung (parts of this battalion, platoon 1st ciclist squadron, 2nd ciclist squadron,3rd stug coy, 2nd platoon/4th weapons coy, AA platoon, AT platoon)
This isn't quite correct

Its a Schnelle Abt not Aufklarungs

From: http://downloads.stu...8R398_H1_43.pdf

As you can see 1 & 2 Kp are cyclist, 3 is SP and 4 Kp is towed guns listed as "S" or schwere ie "heavy"

The 4 Kp guns may be PaK-40 but given the US forces captured two "French" 75mm they *might* be PaK-38/97 alternatively this may refer to the SPs in 3 Kp which are Marder I: http://www.feldgrau....+panzer#p230017

There are no AA guns intrinsic in the organisation so I'm wondering if the "AA platoon" mentioned is the same as the "AA platoon/21 Panzerdivision" also mentioned?

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By Diciassette2000 Posted 15 May 2015 - 06:19 PM

Yes you are right....8th coy's part was detached to reinforce the 6th (infantry) coy
at this point (27/1/43) the 15th tank battalion dont have semoventi attached
the only unit to be at Sened(city)at 27/1/43 were the two platoons/III/132.o AT regiment (semoventi) the others unit are ALL at Sened station
yes 12 lmg in coy
i dont have the exact amount of guns
All the best
Maurizio

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By Bob_Mackenzie
Posted 15 May 2015 - 07:51 PM

diciassette2000, on 15 May 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:
Yes you are right....8th coy's part was detached to reinforce the 6th (infantry) coy
at this point (27/1/43) the 15th tank battalion dont have semoventi attached
the only unit to be at Sened(city)at 27/1/43 were the two platoons/III/132.o AT regiment (semoventi) the others unit are ALL at Sened station
yes 12 lmg in coy
i dont have the exact amount of guns
All the best
Maurizio
Thank you - This info is more than I ever hoped for when I posed the question
 
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