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Aegean CCCXII Btg Misto Carri, When?

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Posted 03 January 2016 - 06:00 AM by Dili

I have conflicting information with all hypothesis about this unit (312º Mixed Armored Battalion):

1- Already in Aegean at 10 June complete.
2- Already in Aegean at 10 June but not complete and continue to arrive 2nd half of 1940 - this source says it starts to be transported for Rhodes in 30 March 1940 and the whole unit finally complete in Rhodes at September.
3- Not in Aegean at 10 June and arrive in 2nd half 1940, 1941.

Secondary Question:

If the Hypothesis 2 is the correct one what was already in Rhodes at 10 June?

Posted 03 January 2016 - 06:53 PM by dicassette2000

The 312.o battaglione misto (CCCXII) was mobilized from 31° Reggimento Fanteria Corazzata (31st Tank Rgt.) 20 may 1939. Put at 4° Reggimento Fanteria Carrista depot come from it to Deposito Misto Truppe dell'Egeo at 30 march 1940 and then go to Rodi on september 1940. At this time it was on M 11/39 tank platoon (4 tank), two coys L3 tanks (8 tank each) and a armoured cars coy Ansaldo-Lancia 1Z (9 armoured cars, 2 tanks platoon (autonomous) (one of 3 tanks and the others of 4 tanks). On 1/9/1942 was mobilized also a Plotone Bersaglieri Autoblindato with 4xAb 41, but at Rodi went only the drivers non only a AB41. On Rodi exist also the 3a Compagnia Carri di Frontiera (from 1939)(with 5 tank Fiat3000 at 1939 only 2 1943).
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 04 January 2016 - 08:02 AM by Dili

Thanks so only moved in September. Do you know the ship that it went on? Must have been one of those dozen very risky done in fast merchants to supply Egeo.

Posted 07 January 2016 - 02:25 PM by jwsleser

This thread caught my eye due to the comment about M11/39s on Rodi.

I am unaware of any M11/39s assigned anywhere else except A.S. and A.O.I. (and the school vehicles).

What I have found.

Gli autoveicoli da combattimento dell’Esercito italiano vol 2 page 106 states that on 27 May 1942 the CCCXII btg. carri misto was equipped with 4 carri L3, 20 carri Fiat 3000 (in two companies), and 6 Ansaldo-Lancia 1Z.

Vol 1 page 65 discusses the Lancia 1Z and they were sent to Rodi in 1939.

Vol. 1 page 364 states that the CCCXII btg. carri misto was created in 1938 with Fiat 3000s.The btg. was one of several created using the Fiats that were displaced by the new authorizations for the divisioni corazzate.

Vol. 2 page 103 states that Rodi has the CCCXII btg. (one pl. autoblinda and two cp. carri M); the 51a cp. carri L was on Creta. Creta was reinforced on 12 March 1943 with a squadrone autonomo equipped with L40. On 5 April the 9° pl. autonomo was received, also with L40s.

I am unsure exactly what type of vehicles were on Creta. The pages above state L40 (which I take are the 47/32 semoventi). However in the section on the L40 vehicles (I will get the page number tonight), it states that the 9° pl. autonomi was equipped with L6s.

Gli autoveicoli appears to use L6 and L40 interchangeably most of the time. The section on the L6 is titled L40. I know the L6 is normally listed as L6/40, but there are places that indicate L6 is the tank and L40 is the semoventi.

The L40 section doesn’t say anything about a cp. autonomi. Le operazioni delle unità italiane nel settembre-ottobre 1943 (I will get the page number tonight, but in the 11a Armata chapter) lists the CCCXXII btg. e 9° pl. autonomi. but not a cp. autonomi. Sadly it doesn’t provide any organizational details.

What is the source of your information?

Pista! Jeff

Posted 07 January 2016 - 03:19 PM by dicassette2000

Hi Jeff my infos came from SME researchs (Rome-Italy)....in effect the 312.o Tank Btl history it's very hard to find but.........

Vol 1 page 65 discusses the Lancia 1Z and they were sent to Rodi in 1939.
It's right but if you translate fine the text say that the Lancia (?+4+2)where sent to Rodi and went in Hq coy but WHEN it's unclear.......

Vol. 1 page 364 states that the CCCXII btg. carri misto was created in 1938 with Fiat 3000s.The btg. was one of several created using the Fiats that were displaced by the new authorizations for the divisioni corazzate.
It's also right but the CCCXII btg M.O. Suarez was demobilized in January 1940 and the tanks went to 3.a compagnia GAF (after 3.a/CCCII Egeo ) SEE ALSO page 365 VOl 1 of your text.... I SAY THAT THE BATTALION (NEW 312.o) went to depot in march 1940 and Egeo in September.......

For the M11 in effect it's unclear if some of the M11 that where at the Scuola carristi are sent in Egeo.......

Your infos on Crete tank equipment are right....

All the best
Maurizio

Posted 07 January 2016 - 04:22 PM by Dili

I have fond this to make things even more complicated: http://freeforumzone...spx?idd=1554030

l CCCXII viene così articolato: 1 plotone blindo, 1 compagnia carri M e 2 compagnie carri L.
Risultava equipaggiato con:
23 carri L3/35
2 carri FIAT 3000 B ---> this probably GAF tanks.
4 carri M11/39
alcune autoblindo

We have photo evidence of L3 at least, they were employed in Eastern invasion of Crete by subunits of Regina Division in 1941.

Here http://miles.forumco....net/?t=9689533 there is a photo of a Lancia Autoblindo said to be from Egeo.

http://www.modellism...php?storyid=515
Nel 1926 34 Lancia furono assegnate ai Carabinieri e dislocate a Napoli, due vennero inviate nel Dodecanneso, soprattutto a scopo di rappresentanza.

Sei lancia erano presenti nel CCCXII battaglione Carri Misto che fu inviato in Egeo nel marzo del 1940 a Psito nell’isola di Rodi.

Posted 08 January 2016 - 05:34 PM by jwsleser

Maurizio e Dili

Obviously there is some uncertainty on the organization/equipment of the CCCXII btg.

The source for the info from Freeforumzone is the Difesa magazine back in 1971. The article was in three parts. I found the magazine issues that have parts 2 and 3 on Ebay (I didn't buy them), but didn't find part 1. If anyone has access to the article, I would be interested to know the sources the author used.

The comment about M13/40s being sent is likely untrue. I also don't think M11/39s were sent. After the losses in A.S. and A.O.I., only the school vehicles remained. Gli autoveicoli lists several M11/39 in existence today which are likely the school vehicles.

It's right but if you translate fine the text say that the Lancia (?+4+2)where sent to Rodi and went in Hq coy but WHEN it's unclear.......

Agreed. I read the entire passage. There was one autocarette with a St Entienne MG, 2 CC.RR. vehicles and 4 R.E. vehicles. What is important is that those vehicles are listed as being on Rodi in 1939.

It's also right but the CCCXII btg M.O. Suarez was demobilized in January 1940 and the tanks went to 3.a compagnia GAF (after 3.a/CCCII Egeo ) SEE ALSO page 365 VOl 1 of your text.... I SAY THAT THE BATTALION (NEW 312.o) went to depot in march 1940 and Egeo in September.......

Thanks! I will look at page 366 tonight. So far, everything in Gli autoveicoli states 20 Fiats sent to Rodi.

Creta. We know 51a cp. carri L and the 9° pl. autonomi with L6s. Was there a squadrone autonomo equipped with L40 or is the squadrone made from these two units?

Does anyone have a copy of L’Esercito Italiano nel Dodecaneso 1912-1943? it might have the answers. I am trying to find a copy to buy.

Pista! Jeff
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Posted 09 January 2016 - 12:59 PM by Dili

Are you sure about L6? i very much doubt it. And the correct naming is L6/40 and Semovente 47/32 so there is no such thing as a L40.

I have read in a Italian forum post that M11/39 and AB41 were sent only the crews but not the equipment. So the unit might be tehre but without equipment.

Posted 09 January 2016 - 07:44 PM by jwsleser

Dili

>Are you sure about L6? i very much doubt it. And the correct naming is L6/40 and Semovente 47/32 so there is no such thing as a L40.

I would normally agree with you, but.... (Gli autoveicoli page 194).



It appears that the series was called L40. The table on pages 203-207 also lists all the variants as L 40 (for example, L 40 semoventi). The section on the 47/32 calls them semoventi da 47/32 L/40. The characteristics table on page 227 compares the Carro Armata L 40 with the Semoventi L 40 da 47/32.

Hence my question. Gli autoveicoli when discussing the armored units in Greece state L40s (page 103). In the L6 section, the 9° pl. autonomi is identified/listed, so the L 40s are likely L6/40s. I have yet to find anything that could be the squadrone autonomo equipped with L40. I am not sure this unit existed.



Pista! Jeff

Posted 09 January 2016 - 10:57 PM by Dili

For some time the L3/33 or 35 were called L33 and L35 so might be this model designation also changed same way.

If the book is correct then there were L6/40 in Crete and the fact that names the company reinforces it but the fact it says there were 2 companies carri M in Aegean instead makes doubt the work quality. Must be a typo for carri L.


I have read in a forum post that some units were sent but the equipment didn't arrived so it is possible something like that occurred.

Posted 11 January 2016 - 03:27 PM by jwsleser

Dili

Yes possibly an error somewhere.

Maurizio

I read page 265. I see where the unit was changed into a training unit. Rather confusing on the use of the same unit number.

Pista! Jeff

Posted 13 January 2016 - 01:00 PM by dicassette2000

It's wrong .. the units was in effect also on 8-8-1943...but was dismembered and reformed and go to Egeo in 1940 (march-september) on an Hq (Lancia Fiat) and two coys of M tanks (Fiat 3000)....... It land in Psito (Rodi) and here was reached by the L coy Egeo raised 1939) that reset wit the ordinative 3.a compagnia/312.o battaglione misto ....In 1941 the 3.a compagnia went on Crete with caffaro Task Force and here remain (in 1942 it was renamed 51.a compagnia carri L). On Rodi stay the Old Fiat armoured cars and the two coys of M tank 3000. On 8-9-43 some of the Fiat are also on the road and fought with german forces but the Fiat3000 fought like weapons pit. The armoured cars were put in flame by the drivers on the end of the battle.
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 13 January 2016 - 02:57 PM by Dili

M is the Fiat 3000? i think at this time Fiat 3000 is L car not M, designation is L5, L5/21
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:01 PM by dicassette2000

Dili, on 13 January 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:
M is the Fiat 3000? i think at this time Fiat 3000 is L car not M, designation is L5, L5/21

The tank Fiat 3000 NEVER change it's name...it's designation name was M21 and M30 and so was called since the end war . For example the 1.a e 2.a compagnia carri armati raised for Sicily in 1942 (Ufficio Ordinamento Smre 272/1942) were called ...compagnie carri M30 also in 1943......(SME archive data-Rome)....Strange....but absolutely right......
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:41 PM by Dili

Some says that the designation was changed at war beginning to L5/21, L5/30. Maybe Jeff can tell what Gli autoveicoli... anyway it is also know that naming in Italian Army sometimes didn't followed the current rules at the time.
 
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