Artillery regiment in Infantry/Mountain Divisions

[Dili]

I always understood that these 2 regiments were different by their 75 artillery, the Infantry had the 75/27 while the Mountain had the 75/13, well one of the reasons to be called Mountain...

But in Niehorster and other places maybe copied from that i have seen a bizarre mix http://www.niehorster.org/019_italy/40_organ/div_inf_40.html

 

[Slavomir]

Not only there...

I have seen artillery regiment of infantry division composed of: one gruppo 100/17, one - 75/27 and one 75/13 in Documento 1/c in F.Botti's La Logistica dell'Esercito Italiano. vol. IV, tomo I p. 385. But I see it as proposed organization, because at the same time it shows compagnia c.c. 47/32 in each infantry regiment, which as we know was replaced by 65/17.

Best regards

 

[jwsleser]

Well, I guess that I need to buy a copy of Logistica dell'Esercito Italiano. vol. IV. I have thought about it, but haven't yet obtained a copy.

From l'esercito italiano tra la 1ª e la 2ª guerra mondiale.

The organization of the reggimento artiglieria divisionale was set at one gruppo da 100/17 motorizzato, one gruppo 75/27 motorizzato, and one gruppo 75/13 someggiato with the creation of the divisioni binaria under Gen. Pariani and documented as part of the Ordinamento Pariani in 1938 (pp. 126-127 and footnotes). This is again repeated in the chart in allegato 52 (p. 307) Formazione di guerra della divisione di fanteria (normale) (1940). The divisione da montagna replaced the gruppo 75/27 with a second gruppo da 75/13.

La artiglieria del Regio Esercito nella seconda guerra mondiale also states the same (p. 33).

I guess I will begin to look to see if any divisions had this artillery organization. I will also see if I can find any reference as to why this organization generally doesn't appears in any wartime OB.

Thanks Dili. Interesting question. Something I hadn't noticed before.

Pista! Jeff

 

[Dili]

Thanks Slavomir, Jeff

Below is the Ramius website with a very detailed Infantry Division of 1940 with 2 Gruppi da 75/27. I mean it is the only that makes sense. Because there is also the question that there are many more 75/27 than 75/13.

http://xoomer.alice.it/ramius/Militaria/divisione_fanteria_1940.html

 

[jwsleser]

I looked the Handbook on the Italian Military Forces (1943) and it also states the mix of the three different gruppi (para. 89, pp. 88-89 in my reprint). There is a comment that the 100/17 and the 75/27 gruppi were motorized in 1939, but captured documents still reflect the horse-drawn/pack mix. My working assumption is that the 75/13s were replaced when the artillery was motorized, but the TO&Es were never updated to reflect the change.

The US Army is similar in some ways. The TO&E is the base TO&E and generally reflects the original organization/equipment. The MTO&E uses the base TO&E, but includes the actual equipment the units is issued. Until the organization of the units change, the MTO&E only reflects different equipment. I don't know when the US adopted the MTO&E, but my guess is after WW2.

It is likely that the Italians just use a 'base' TO&E design, and equipment was changed and recorded as a basis of issue, or some similar document.

Mostly speculation.

 

[Dili]

75/27 were mostly horse drawn. Of course could be put into the contraption carrier trailer.

 

[diciassette2000]

The differentiation between normal infantry and mountain infantry division was and remained so only until the end of the 1940 campaign against France. Substantially the difference was resolved in the composition of the artillery regiment that in the mountain version had to contain up to three groups of 75/13 pieces, but in the normal version it would have had to contain a group of 75/13, one of 75/27 and one from 100/17. the divisions considered "from the mountains" also had the services fully resembled. The "mountain" divisions were:
-Acqui, Arezzo, Assietta, Brennero, Cagliari, Ferrara, Forli, Leghorn, Marche, Modena, Puglie, Ravenna, Sforzesca, Superga and Venice.
At the beginning of the Greek campaign, however, this distinction declined in practice, leading to the generic diction of the Infantry Division even though some divisions continued to boast on the field of the title "infantry division".
All the best
Maurizio

 

[Dili]

How there is contradictory information? information that says 2 gruppi 75/27?

It does not make sense to have 75/13 in Infantry divisions .
There were less 75/13, it had less range.

 

[jwsleser]

We know that some Italian divisions did have artillery regiments with different structures. That doesn't change the fact that the 'one gruppo da 100/17 motorizzato, one gruppo 75/27 motorizzato, and one gruppo 75/13 someggiato' was the official organization.

It does not make sense to have 75/13 in Infantry divisions .
There were less 75/13, it had less range.

It makes sense in terms of where the R.E. identified their wartime theaters. Defending the alpine barrier, fighting the Balkans, and against France all would see extensive mountain combat where the 75/13 would be valuable.

We also don't know whether this was an economy measure to cover the lack of 75/27 guns. All divisions are authorized the 75/13, but some divisions were ungraded to two gruppi da 75/27. For example, all the d.f. A.S. had only 100/17 and 75/27.

Was this due to availability, theater, some other requirement? We don't know at this time.

 

[Dili]

How the 24 75/27 appear in Ramius very detailed Infantry Division of 1940?

There wasn't lack of 75/27. There were around 1605+1073+268(TM)=2946 - not including the 101 da posizione (probably mostly in GAF in the Alps) . Instead there were about 1167 75/13 so almost 1/3

Source: http://xoomer.virgilio.it/ramius/Militaria/artiglierie_2gm.html

If we make the Italian army as you say:

75/13
I account for 20 groups Alpine artillery that makes : 240 guns
30 groups in 15 Mt Divisions : 360 guns
28 groups in 28 Ft divisions :336

Total: 936 75/13 for 1167 available. Plus 32 in AOI. So in theory the reserve/replacements is only 199.

75/27
18 groups in 9 AS autotrasp. 18 :216
6 groups in 3 CCNN : 72
28 groups in 28 Ft :336
6 groups in 3 Corazz. :72
6 groups in 3 Autotrasp: 72
4 groups in 2 Moto: 48
9 groups of 8 in 3 Celere: 72

Total: 888 75/27 for 2946 available.
For reference there are 499 75/27 gun in ASI of which 430 are in units of which in theory 288 are in AS and CCNN Divisions. So 148 in other units.


Anyway i find it difficult to believe that the most common gun(2 models) with more range wasn't more represented than 75/13 in Divisions.



Am i missing something or made some mistake?

 

[diciassette2000]

Dili
the composition of the artillery regiment constantly varied according to the division's use theater, therefore during the war practically all regiments underwent constant variations of the organic and types of cannon employed but if we refer to the mobilization and the subsequent campaign of France the divisions considered from the mountains had almost all of them at least two groups on pieces drowned out by 75/13 ...... example
Acqui, 2 x 75/13
Arezzo 3 x 75-13
Brenner 2 x 75-13
Ferrara 1 x 75-18, 1 x 75-13
Modena 2 x 75-13
Ravenna 2 x 75-13
Sforzesca 2 x 75-13
Superga 2 x 75-13
Venice 2 x 75-13
As I said earlier, mountain divisions also did not have vehicles in practice. Destined for the fight in the mountains, they had all the salters and services that had come to the fore.
All the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Thank you Maurizio for that recap of the units in the invasion of France.

For the Greek campgnia in Oct 1940:

Venezia - 1 x 100/17 mod 16, 1 x 100/17 mod 14 (2 btr.), 1 x 75/18, 1 x 73/13
Ferrara - 1 x 100/17, 1 x 75/18, 1 x 75/27 (2 btr. ), 1 x 73/13
Parma - 1 x 100/17, 2 x 73/13
Piemonte - 1 x 100/17 mod 14 (2 gruppi attached to Ferrara and Siena)
Arezzo - 3 x 73/13
Siena - 2 x 75/27, 2 x 73/13
Julia - 2 x 73/13
Centauro - 2 x 75/27

None of these divisions were considered divisione da montagna except Julia which is actually d. alpina. Centauro is a d. corazzata.

 

[Dili]

Maurizio the issue is how many 75/13 groups batteries existed in Infantry Divisions or which had them . I have had no doubts about the Mountain Divisions composition, for me has been clear they had 75/13 only for 75mm - or the update 75/18 - because those are mountain gun.

Thanks Jeff. I seeing some artillery overload/distributed including 100/17. Probably we can say that Siena had 75/27 but got reinforced. Or instead was the Piemonte that had 75/27.

 

[jwsleser]

While searching for something different, I came across this. Montanari Le operazioni in A.S. vol III, pp.96-97. Info is Feb 1942.

Dopo lungo e deprimente esame, il programma di assegnazione delle artiglieria alla grandi unità fu determinato in questi termini: [After a long and depressing examination, the program of assigning artillery to larger units was determined as follows:]

D. celere: tre gruppi da 75/27
D. alpine: un gruppo d 75/13 per ogni reggimento alpino più un gruppo da 105/11 di preda bellica
D. fanteria: due gruppi da 100/17 e due gruppi da 75/13 o 75/18-34 o 75/18-35 o 75/27
D. tipo A.S. 42: quattro gruppi divisionali motorizzati ed uno controaerei
D. corazzate: due gruppi da 75 TM, due gruppi da 75/18 semoventi, uno da 105/28 o 105/32 ed uno da 90/53

The 75/13 is still in the mix.

 

[Dili]

Thanks that increases my understanding of TOE changes in war.

Yes but that 75/13 is in game is not my issue, the issue is indeed the mix, but other kind of mix: Note the uniformity, it is 2 groups of 75/13 or 2 groups of 75/27 not a bizarre 75/27+75/13 which for me does not make sense with different range/performance/know how etc.

At this time the mountain denomination was not employed anymore even if i think it is still applicable to the geography a specific division operates.
So i beleive they would give 75/13 to divisions deployed in more mountainous terrain.

 

[Dili]

Do you know when those artillery changes to 4 groups were made in D.fanteria ? only when type 43 appears?

 

[diciassette2000]

After march 1942....and affected only the divisions in Italy and 4.a armata in France and Corsica.........in 1941-1942 the 2.a armata divisions often send the 3rd batteries of artillery groups, the 20mm AA battery or only three guns of some groups for replaced guns in AS or Tunisia and some nevere replaced the lost guns.............
ALl the best
Maurizio