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AS TO&E

WAKEN

New Member
Hi everyone. Does anyone have the TO&E that would have been in place at the time of Crusader for the following units?

Machinegun battalion (I believe the Genova battalion was in the Bardia fortress and 27th Infantry Division Brescia had a divisional MG bn).

Engineer company in a divisional Engineer battalion.

31st Guastatori battalion (I believe it had 36 LMGs, 36 light mortars and 36 flamethrowers)

10th and 27th Pioneer battalions

Thanks
 
Hi Waken.

As the machine gun battalions were more or less extinct by then, I don't think that an AS42 tabelle organiche for them ever existed. Go with the AS40 for a theoretical strength.

Which company within the Battaglione Misto Genio are you looking for?

31st Guastatori had 32 of each I thought? But I could be wrong.

10 & 27 Pioneer don't exist as named. Do you mean X Battaglione Speciale Artieri & XXVII Battaglione Artieri perhaps?

Kind regards,
David.
 

WAKEN

New Member
Thanks David. According to the page on this website the MG battalions had six companies of 12 heavy machineguns each. Does anyone know what the organisation of each company was? Presumably 3 platoons of 4 guns per company... but how many men per platoon and were there any other weapons other then rifles/carbines?

"Do you mean X Battaglione Speciale Artieri & XXVII Battaglione Artieri perhaps?" Please excuse my ignorance, yes I mean those two battalions.

For the Guastatori does anyone know who many men each company had and were there any other weapons other than the LMGs, light mortars and flamethrowers, e.g. sub-machineguns, anti-tank rifles etc.

Thanks,

Neil
 
Hello again Neil.

I think that four companies of 12x 8mm M/gs was the norm. Other weapons were 7x L/Mgs. 3x Brixia mortatrs.

The X & XXVII Battaglione Artieri are a bit of a mystery. I have seen 231 men quoted, but also 321. The latter seems a bit high for what I believe essentially to be just two companies. The only heavy weapons would appear to be a small number of flamethrowers.

XXXI Battaglione Guastatori Del Genio; consisits of 1st Co Giaguaro. 2nd Co Lupo. 7th Co Tigre .8th Co Leone With in total 792 men, 8x Sub M/gs, 32x Lt Mgs, 32x Brixias, & some flamethrowers.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
David.
 
Folks, as far as the Regio esercito is concerned, we should stop thinking "American", that is, by going back to the official organic tables for the OOB. It is true that even in the Royal Army there were these tables (provisional and definitive) but unfortunately never (I say never) were actually respected especially in AS where a thousand transitory, special and circumstantial solutions were put in place to make up for the chronic shortage of means and men who afflicted the Royal army for the ENTIRE war. Therefore we are not faced with a large and well-organized army and moreover standardized as the one that the USA knew how to field and which "respected" TOE and organic tables for exuberance of means and men but for an army that had wanted to keep a number disproportionate of divisions instead of lowering the number and thus making the average staff more consistent without then talking about the weapons and mechanical means available. To this must be added the difficulty of fighting far from the motherland which complicated the supplies in the final stages of the campaign, especially. However, to conclude on the eve of Crusader, a Pavia company that was one of the best organized and equipped divisions of the moment could field 80 to 90 men against the 144 of its official TOE. This clearly applied also to the other units especially for the genius and the services always running out of materials, men and means. A last small clarification if the machine-gun battalions can serve, both divisional and cavalry cavalry ones often used Schwarlose machine guns remnants of the First World War in place of the Breda 37 which lacked in number and efficiency. It was therefore a war entirely dedicated to "do it yourself" and improvisation and certainly not standardization. It is also true that the use of captured, readapted or recycled material was not only Italian but also the British and Germans were no different.
All the best
maurizio
 

WAKEN

New Member
Thanks Maurizio. I totally appreciate what you are saying. I am in the process of re-designing the 1978 GDW Operation Crusader game so that I can play it with my friends. I did a similar research exercise for a Normandy 1944 game several years ago. The Allies are relatively simple as you say. I haven't looked at the Allied forces for Crusader yet, but I fully expect that one infantry battalion will be almost identical to the next. I appreciate that the Tobruk garrison will have a number of additional captured weapons in its inventory too. For the Germans in Normandy I got historical reports from various sources and I used TO&E to make intelligent guesses to fill in the blanks. For the Germans in Crusader there seems to be a good deal of data on actual strength available... but I haven't looked at the Germans yet. For now I am trying to get an accurate picture of Italian strength and weaponry - and where actuals don't exist I will fall back to TO&E and make an intelligent estimate based on that. So, as per my post on the other topic, if you would be kind enough to share whatever details you have, similar to what you have already done for Savona; that would be great!

Cheers,

Neil
 

WAKEN

New Member
Thanks for your information David. Please excuse my ignorance, but are the Artieri battalions assault engineers or general purpose engineers? If they are assault engineers then, like the Guastatori; you would expect them to have some LMGs, light mortars etc. as well as flame throwers.
Do you have anything on the TO&E for the engineer company in a divisional engineer battalion?

Cheers,

Neil
 

WAKEN

New Member
A follow up on this if I may Maurizio: "a Pavia company that was one of the best organized and equipped divisions of the moment could field 80 to 90 men against the 144 of its official TOE". As I understand it Pavia, as well as Bologna; were the most advanced of the divisions moving to the new TO&E. From what you told me on the other thread the TO&E for an infantry company in the AS Motorized Division TO&E was 92 men, so that sounds like this Pavia company was pretty much at full strength. Was the 144 men the TO&E for a June 1940 AS infantry company?

Cheers,

Neil
 
Yes, it's like you said. In reality Crusader caught the Italian departments in full transformation and the situation was roughly the following:
The only one to have a structure and endowment adhering to the envisaged scheme was Trieste which in fact was in staff redundancy (the fights will begin with a total of 10,809 men) still considering the Bersaglieri regiment not included in the organic tables . In return, however, it lacked, like all the other large artillery units. Trento had not received the vehicles necessary for the complete motorization of the unit, on the other hand it still had the Bersaglieri regiment on staff but the artillery regiment was not in compliance with the provisions. He had also received from Italy many French Hotchkiss pieces of war prey of 25mm (about 60 pieces) in replacement of the 20mm Soluthurns foreseen as infantry anti-tank armament in the organic tables. At the time of Crusader's start he had a total of 166 anti-tank pieces in charge of the division. (Crusader's fights will begin with an effective force of 9041 men.) "Pavia" and "Bologna" had assumed the AS type order only as regards the infantry units and not even according to the organic type schemes. They did not have their complete artillery regiments, nor did they receive the vehicles that justified the qualification of "motorized". They also lacked anti-tank artillery by deploying an endowment of about 100 pieces at the start of Crusader against the 120 provided by the organic tables. (Crusader fights will begin with an effective force of 6383 and 6519 men respectively) In general it is to be noted (see also battle order) that to cope with the organic deficiencies we tried to recover all the recoverable from the warehouses and on the battlefield in order to reuse reinforcement of the units also weapons not foreseen in the staff or already considered obsolete. A significant example is the use of the 37mm anti-tank piece now ineffective in that war theater at this date or of the L35 light tank also no longer effective if not in secondary tasks.
All the best
Maurizio
 

WAKEN

New Member
Many thanks Maurizio. I believe the 1940 AS division had a TO&E of 10,978 men, the 1940 motorised division had a TO&E of 10,831 men, and the AS42 TO&E was 6,865 men... so your actual figures for the start of Crusader give an indication that the manpower strength of Trieste, Trento, Pavia and Bologna weren't far off being full strength.

Cheers,

Neil
 
Thanks for your information David. Please excuse my ignorance, but are the Artieri battalions assault engineers or general purpose engineers? If they are assault engineers then, like the Guastatori; you would expect them to have some LMGs, light mortars etc. as well as flame throwers.
Do you have anything on the TO&E for the engineer company in a divisional engineer battalion?

Cheers,

Neil
Hi Neil.

The only combat engineers were the Guastatori. The Battaglione Misto Genio (Divisional engineers) were more like telephone engineers than bridge building engineers. If and it's a big if; the Battaglione had a Compagnia Artieri, this was designed to build or demolish roadblocks etc. They may have had a handful of flame throwers within that Compagnia.
 

WAKEN

New Member
Thanks David. Did a search for 'Misto Genio' as you suggested but didn't find anything more on its structure. Anyway it sounds like the battalion had 1 company of signallers and 1 of engineers.

Cheers
 
the TOE of the mixed genius battalion of the motorized division type AS was the following:
In Italian language:
Battaglione misto genio per divisione motorizzata tipo AS
-Compagnia Genio Artieri
--Plotone Comando
---Squadra Comando
---Squadra Rifornitori
--4 Plotoni Genio Artieri
---2 Squadre Genio Artieri
-Compagnia Genio Telegrafisti e Radiotelegrafisti
--Plotone Comando
---Squadra Comando
---Squadra Rifornitori
--2 Plotoni Genio Telegrafisti
---2 Squadre Genio Telegrafisti
--Plotone Genio Radiotelegrafisti
---2 Squadre Genio Radiotelegrafisti
-Sezione Genio Fotoelettricisti
--2 Plotoni Genio Fotoelettricisti
---2 Squadre Genio Fotoelettricisti
Totale di reparto 374 Effettivi (14 Ufficiali, 21 Sottufficiali, 286 Militari di Truppa)
Mezzi (2 auto,26 Autocarri, 4 Autospeciali, 5 Motociclette, 12 Mototricicli)
in british/american language:
Engineered mixed battalion for motorized division type AS
-Genius Artieri Company
- Command platoon
--- Command team
--- Supply team
--4 Platoons Genius Artieri
--- 2 Genius Artieri Teams
-Genius Company Telegraphists and Radio-telegraphers
- Command platoon
--- Command team
--- Supply team
--2 Genius Platoons Telegraphists
--- 2 Telegraphist Genius Teams
--Genius Platoon Radiotelegraphists
--- 2 Genius Radiotelegraphist Teams
- Photoelectric Engineer Section
--2 Platoons Genius Photoelectricists
--- 2 Teams of photoelectric engineers
Department Total 374 Staff (14 Officers, 21 Petty Officers, 286 Troop Soldiers)
Vehicles (2 cars, 26 trucks, 4 trucks, 5 motorcycles, 12 motorbikes)

Also keep in mind that the battalion guastatori (of genius - not to be confused with the battalion guastatori of infantry) that went to AS (31.o 32.o) were not uniform in fact the first was on 4 companies (then 3 from 1942) while the 2nd was on two companies only. Among other things, the battalions NEVER fought together but always split into companies assigned from time to time to different divisions.
To conclude, David is right when he tells you that the battalion spoilers were the only "combat" battles, even though there were episodes during the war that also saw the engineering companies of the genius (especially of the Army Corps and Army) employed as troops. breakthrough or assault.
ALl the best
Maurizio
 
Neil wrote. ""I am in the process of re-designing the 1978 GDW Operation Crusader game so that I can play it with my friends. I did a similar research exercise for a Normandy 1944 game several years ago. ""

That's of great interest to me, as I am in the process (nearly finished) of doing the same for Avalon Hill's France 1940".

And have been involved in a lifelong (well, since 1989) struggle to create a decent Battalion level tactical wargame of the North African campaign from 10/06/40 to 23/10/42. Hence why I had most of the information you required to hand.

Incidentally, the Comando supremo forum has been an absolute gold mine of information on the Italians.
 

WAKEN

New Member
From the Rommel's Riposte site I got this German Kriegsgliederung report for Pavia, presumably produced by a German staff officer attached to the division. Has anyone seen any Kriegsgliederung reports for other Italian formations?
 

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  • Pavia.pdf
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No I do not have the original of the document that comes from a contemporary NAK DAK Roll but I know the date of the document (which only concerns the Italian units) which dates back to September 3, 1941. Be careful, however, that like all German documents concerning the their allies are often incomplete or partially erroneous, moreover if you look carefully you will see that it reports only the theoretical scheme without any units attached below (October, November). It is however a good starting point because it schematically shows the motorized division type 1941 to which Pavia and Bologna had to conform .....
 
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