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Battle of Mechilli-Derna January 1941

Jeff... sure that the Pancano belonged to the Babini brigade, it appears to me that only a part of the motorcyclists came from that unit... I composed the Pancano as follows: 370 men, 3 pieces of 47/32 from the GAF, 4 pieces of 75/27 of the 2nd group of the 10th artillery regiment, 12 pieces of 20mm anti-aircraft of the 14th anti-aircraft company (ex Isonzo division), 4 M11/39 of the 1st battalion of the 4th tank regiment medium, 1 captured Humber armored car, 22 trucks and 12 motorcycles of the 60th Bersaglieri company. For the rest, the tanks (4) belonged to the 1st tank battalion M11_32 of the Ariete and had been recovered from Tobruk before its fall. In truth, 10 had been recovered but only 4 had arrived in Derna. The rest of the battalion had been used in Tobruk as blockhouses, burying the immobilized tanks.
All the best
Maurizio
 
Jeff I saw your map of the Ftjah area ... I'd be curious to know how you managed to position the companies of the Libyan parachute battalion since Tonini's diaries no longer exist at the EMS ....
All the best
maurizio
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Maurizio

I am not sure what EMS refers to.

RE: Relazione Tonini. I believe that the Museo Storico delle Aviotruppe holds Tonini's papers. Di Giovanni in his I paracadutisti italiani Volontari, miti e memoria della seconda guerra mondiale cites the papers. I was unable to obtain a copy, but Arena used them quite extensively in his accounts. I hope to either return to Italy and visit the museum or find someone in Italy willing to copy the papers.

RE: Locations on Derna maps. My fn 19 on p.90 states "The Libyan parachute company identifications/locations on Maps 4.3–4.10 are best estimates using mainly secondary sources. Additional research is required."

The positions were determined by comparing the various Italian and Australian accounts and I feel they are pretty accurate. I wasn't able to determine the locations of the individual elements from «Pancano», but assumed they were spread out between the para. companies as they were mainly combat support units or very ad hoc. None of the accounts (Italian or Aust.) addressed these elements separately except for the bersaglieri motociclisti and the M11/39 tanks. Fn 24 on p.93 states "It is assumed that the elements of «Pancano» were integrated into Tonini’s defense as support weapons and not as separate maneuver elements."

The identifications (1ª cp., etc.) are best guesses. I created an officer list by company using all the sources I had available. This was complicated by the other officers attached as part of gruppo mobile «Tonini», so my list was only about 50% functional. Tonini's account as presented by Arena mainly identified units by officers names, so I tried to compare the names to the list. The only unit identification that I am fully comfortable with is the 1ª cp. 3ª cp. is iffy, and 2ª and 4ª cp. were a toss-up. Hence my footnote.

RE: «Pancano». I have it initially organized with the 60ª cp. bersaglieri motociclisti (two platoons); 14ª batteria contraerea (six 20mm AA guns); and Plotone di formazione, I Battaglione, 4º Reggimento Carri Medi (four M11/39 tanks). When the unit was detached to protect the Wadi Bgar, it received two bersaglieri anti-tank platoons (four 47/32 c.c., 83 men), one btr. da 75/27 from the II/10º rgt. art. «Bologna», and 175 men with various weapons, six 20/65 c.a. guns, and three additional 47/32 guns. All my sources state the captured armored car was a Marmon-Herrington.

Pista! Jeff
 
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n fact you are right the armored car was a Marmon-Herrington and not a Humber but the Aresca report also confirms that the 1st battalion of the 4th tank regiment M11/39 arrived in Tobruk and on December 15th it was order to immediately send to Ain El Gazala, the most backward location on the coast, the only 5 efficient M/11 tanks at its disposal. Such wagons were to take part in the formation of a rapid column. Therefore I really think that the 4 wagons were those..... However, I still have a further doubt.....on page 202 of Graziani's book of 1940 based on his report on the events in AS (sheet 01-951 and 01-951) of the same year and written in his own hand there is a note which says..."I'm also assigning 28 trucks to mobilize the parachute battalion...."...the question is which was the parachute battalion to mobilize ..everything suggests given that the same sentence speaks of reinforcement of the Derna sector whether it was the Libyan Air Infantry battalion... ????
All the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
RE: Trucks for the two parachute battalions. Yes my sources stated that the two battalions were issued trucks and transferred to the control of Superasi in Aug–sep as conventional infantry. As I state on p.84 "It is rather ironic that the two airborne battalions became one of the few fully motorized units in the Italian Army in North Africa in 1940."

The battalions conducted mobile patrols in the Derna–Martuda area in Oct before returning to Barce. The 1º para. libici was ordered from Barce to Derna on 15 January 41.

Pista! Jeff
 

Kustosz2137

New Member
As I stated, I am away from home and couldn't access my notes. So my error in making that statement.

That article was written in 2015. Seven years later collecting many more books and a trip to the archives can change the picture.

If you read the article, it continues with.....



The II btg. M never joined the brigade. A point that was unclear when I wrote that article in 2015 is how much of the I btg. M was actually with the brigade when it moved to Gazala. From research since that year and the discovery of gruppo «Pancano», it is likely that most of that battalion was left inoperable in Tobruk and only the four M11/39s made the move to Gazala. Gruppo «Pancano» first appears in the accounts at Gazala. There is one reference that the gruppo moved from a unstated location south of Tobruk. It is possible that it was formed in Tobruk when most of the M11/39s were inoperable. At this point it is unlikely that the I btg. M was a functional part of the brigade and likely never was. Just my opinion.

Clearly more research would be great, but has been previously stated that many documents were lost.

Pista! Jeff
I propably have some outdated information, but for me it seems like Ist battalion was part of BCS at least for period between start of Operation Compass and formation of Pancano. Btw is it known when exactly Pancano was created?
 
Excuse me Jeff but are you quite sure that the OOB of the 19th Australian Brigade in Derna was the one you described, namely: 19th Aust Bde : 2/4, 2/8, 2/11. A/6th Aust Div Cavalry and artillery ????
All the best
maurizio
 

Slavomir

New Member
Jeff is correct, Maurizio

Please find attached the exert from 19th Bde WD

Regards

Slavomir

19AustBde_25JAN.jpg
 
Slavomir
The battle for Derna didn't just take place at 20.00 on 25 January 1941.....I meant the OOB of the 19th Australian Brigade in the whole battle which was a bit more complicated than what you and Jeff gave ....you should read the entire diary of the brigade not only the annex A of January 25th ....anyway....after all, even the Italian OOB is not so easy to obtain....(that of all the battle)....
All the best
maurizio
 

Slavomir

New Member
Maurizio,
I agree that the Battle for Derna lasted longer than just on 25 JAN. And yes, I have read the whole WD. And I found that the OOB presented by Annex A to Op Inst No 7 from 25 JAN (which I inserted just as an example), was valid until 30 JAN when 2/8 Fld Coy returned under the control of CRE, and A Sqdr 6th Cav returned under the direct control of 6th Div (as ordered in Op Inst No 8 from 29 JAN).
Regards
Slavomir
 

jwsleser

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Staff member
Maurizio

I cover the battle from first contact with the forward elements of the 7th Ar Div on 17 Jan to the Italian withdrawal early morning of 30 Jan. I only listed the main components. There was artillery, AA, A/T, etc. that are listed in the book. Note that my account is focused on the Italian forces and the Allies are only addressed to the extent needed, hence I only detailed those units that had an active part in the battle.

As I state on p.xvi....

The reader will not find a complete retelling of the various battles and campaigns during which the paracadutisti were involved. There are many English titles that present these events in greater detail and completeness and this book is not attempting to duplicate those works. What is presented within these pages is a detailed account of those parts of the battles and campaigns in which the paracadutisti fought or were otherwise involved. This account is meant to read along with those other works to gain a fuller understanding of the participation of the paracadutisti in those specific actions.

BTW, I have the complete WDs for the units involved, from the 6th Aust. on down.

Pista! Jeff
 
Slavomir
mine was just a generic note because the Australian diaries are often very patchy and incomplete especially when they fought together with British or generically British units .... for me this is the case because at the moment (23-30 January) the column of the 19th Australian brigade group which was moving towards Derna sulla Balbia had under its control also British troops (machine gunners and artillery) which are partially detailed in the chronological diary (not in the attachments)...however I still have to explain good because often those notes do not coincide with the diaries of the 7th British armored division which was instead approaching Derna from the southeast ... in fact there are partially conflicting news precisely on the units detached from the Australians ...... these discrepancies they could also be explained by the convulsive moments of the battle or even by clerical errors of which unfortunately even the official data are often not free (see contemporary German lagekarten and meldung)
Jeff
You are right, yours is a study linked to the Italian side therefore you were right to stay very generic about the "enemy's" associates....
All the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I have modified the thread title so to include the Derna discussion.

for me this is the case because at the moment (23-30 January) the column of the 19th Australian brigade group which was moving towards Derna sulla Balbia had under its control also British troops (machine gunners and artillery) which are partially detailed in the chronological diary (not in the attachments)...

Yes, the 1/Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (2 MG coys), J Battery RHA (AT), a troop of the 37 LAA, and the 2/1 FA.

Pista! Jeff
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Wargames

I have not been able to find the source you cited in one of your posts:

Italians vs Australians in Derna, 1940 by Stefan Farrelly, Line of Comunications, December 2007 pages 28-29

Is Line of Communications a book, magazine, or website? Trying to find this source.

v/r Jeff
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Francoquarter

My belated thank you/grazie for the links to the 'Line of Communication' magazine. I did look at the second link (as you stated, the first didn't work). The articles OB contains the incorrect identification of the two Italian machine gun battalions that I discuss on p.89, fn.18 of Infantrymen along with other mistakes.

Doers anyone have a copy of Diego Vinici's L'8 Bersaglieri e la guerra in Africa Settentrionale (1941-1943)? Farrelly states he received a document from Vinici of this title that covered all the bersaglieri ("The history of the 8th Bersaglieri regiment, 1982 [not only a history of the 8th regiment but also a masterly survey of the whole campaign and all the other Bersaglieri units in Africa until 1943])" The book is dated 1977, but his cite in his bibliography is dated 1982. I am wondering if book is a title worth finding.

Pista! Jeff
.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Francoquarter

Thank you. You couldn't find anything because I misspelled Vicini's name. I had Googled it correctly but brain cramp when I wrote it in my post.

His book appears to be quite rare, a volume that I will keep a watch for.

Pista1 Jeff
 
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