British Naval Losses in the Mediterranean

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Posted by Kuno: Mon Sep 20, 2004

Difficult question - I know:

Is there a RELIABLE list, showing British naval losses in the Mediterranean which have ben caused by:

A) Italian Battleships etc.

B) Italian Torpedo-Planes

C) Italian Bomb-Planes

D) Others

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Posted by PG : Mon Sep 20, 2004

Only one British ship, a motorlaunch was sunk by Italian naval guns in the war in the Med. Don't know if it was a battleship or other that did it. I'd need to look it up. Naval war in the Med. 1940-1943 by Greene and Massignani will cover all your questions but not in a table form.....you'd need to read the whole book.

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Posted by FB: Mon Sep 20, 2004

Or we could just ask one of the two authors you mentioned. Apparently, in fact, Mr. Greene himself has just subscribed to the forum
Very Happy


See here from the forum homepage:

Our users have posted a total of 9950 articles
We have 374 registered users
The newest registered user is Jack Greene

Best regards (and welcome to our new friend
Smile
)

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Posted by Jack Greene: Mon Sep 20, 2004

Glad to be aboard.

As to Losses caused by surface warships, not counting the X MAS, it is two small craft sunk (the second one not listed usually was lost in 1943 off Tunisia). However, the two British DD's sunk at Operation Harpoon could not have been sunk without the surface ships (Axis air helped). Of course, several sunk British subs - 44 (?I think that is right) were lost in the Med mostly to Italians in the course of the war, an Italian article appeared listing all this about two years back. Plus you have a British DD disabled and lost off Sicily during Tunisia and you have the DD Mohawk lost in an early convoy battle. But there is no correct list as such.

Sadkovich in his ITALIAN NAVY IN WORLD WAR II has a general list that is pretty accurate.

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Posted by PG: Tue Sep 21, 2004

Blimey! Liked the book by the way (the naval one that is).....don't suppose your co-author is going to join as well???
 

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Posted by kittyhawk: Tue Sep 21, 2004

Excellent book Mr Greene.

As to British naval losses, I hate to contradict pg but wasn't a destroyer sunk by an Italian submarines gunfire in the Red Sea in June 40?

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Posted by Jim H: Mon Sep 20, 2004

This may be of some help on British submarines.

British Submarine Losses in Mediterranean

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Posted by Franco: Tue Sep 21, 2004

Maybe
but Red Sea isn't Mediterraneo

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Posted by JeffreyF: Tue Sep 21, 2004

Talking about R.Smg Torricelli? I saw a conversation about this on warships1.com that talked about some mechanical fault causing a short or something that created a fire that led to the loss of this ship after the battle. Sadly the board doesn't keep it's past posts available so can't dig it up.

Btw what is the proper designation for RMI ships? Just using the one that regiamarina.net uses because I could not remember the name of the submarine. I won't say what name was going through my head.
Embarassed


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Posted by Supermarina: Fri Sep 24, 2004

Well,

the Royal Navy suffered in the Med. the following direct losses by the action of Italian surface ships (Regie Navi):

cruiser HMS Manchester (by a MTB)
DD HMS Mohawk (by two torpedoes fired by the Regio Cacciatorpediniere Tarigo)

DD HMS Hereward (crippled before by German bombers and scuttled when encountered, off Crete, in daylight, a squadriglia of MAS - little Italian MTBs; the MAs recovered the crew and the British soldiers previously rescued by that DD)

DD HMS Bedouin (power loss by the fire of the cruisers of the VII Divisione Eugenio and Montecuccoli and sunk while was under tow by an Italian torpedo bomber)

DD HMS Pakenham (scuttled by the British the morning after a night encounter with two Italian Torpedo boats when this DD, once again under tow by a companion, was sighted by two Italian fighters)

DE Eridge (total constructive loss after the attack, off the Marsa Matruch coast, of an MTSM - a sort of very small MTB - )

MTB 639 by the fire of the Regia Torpediniera Sagittario

MTB 316 by the fire of the Regio Incrociatore (cruiser) Scipione


About a general list it's possible to quote, not recalling the a.m. ships:

cruisers Calypso, York, Bonaventure, Neptune, Cairo,

DD Khartoum, Escort, Hostile, Hyperion, Gallant, Juno, Imperial, Watheren, Fearless, Kandahar, Havoc, Foresight, Sikh, Zulu.

Sloops Ibis,

Corvettes Marigold, Samphire

Fleet Minesweepers Croomer, Algerine, Fantome.

not counting the submarines, the coastal forces, the ships seized in Yugoslavia and Greece, the auxiliaries etc.

Two more things would have to be remembered too:

a) the causes of many losses are debatable or have a mixed origin

b) sea power can not be dictated by the balance of the losses but only by the use of the sea.

Bye

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Posted by Kuno: Sun Sep 26, 2004

...and what damage has been caused by the Regia Aeronautica?

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Posted by Jack Greene: Sun Sep 26, 2004

Therein lies the rub. For example, the Bedouin and Partridge are listed as being sunk by both air and naval forces, which is correct. But the services sometimes squabble over who deserves it.

A serious study by Alberto Santoni and Francesco Mattesini (Mattesini has been publishing small books and long essays in Bollettino on various surface actions in the MED for over a decade and recently did the 1st Battle of the Sirte in Bollettino)

is: LA PARTECIPAZIONE TEDESCA ALLA GUERRA AERONAVALE NEL MEDITERRANEO 1940-1945. I think it has been recently republished and can be had at TUTTOSTORIA.

Lots of tables and charts in the back to show what the Italians did and what the Germans did in the MED during the war.
 
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Posted by Supermarina: Sun Sep 26, 2004

As a naval conflict is not a soccer league game why not apply the criteria of real war at sea?

The problem, like in any wargame, is

considering the following theme:

an intruder fleet in an inner sea (the Allied after the French debacle) without the logistical capability to repair his own men-of-war (as Malta is no more since April 1939 the traditional main base of the Mediterranean Fleet as a consequence of the Regia Aeronautica air menace)

against a defending one which is weaker but has the yards necessary to repair and refit her damaged ships.

The date of the armistice (8 Sept. 1943) is the whistle of the referee,

You must count the ships sunk (as they are no more available, of course) and the ones damaged in such a way they have to end their Mediterranean mission being repaired beyond the Mediterranean-Red Sea basin (UK, USA, Durban etc.) or the defender ones which are still out of service at the day of the armistice.

If you apply these categories (the only sound in a war where the Allied forces could be improved from outside when necessary, as, for example, Substance, Harpoon, Pedestal, Torch and, above all, Husky) I'm sure you will be surprised.

I yet did all the necessary records, of course, for BB, carriers, and cruisers (the only kind of men-of-war I would consider for this analysis) but I'm curious to match my conclusions with any of your ones, Gentlemen.

Just to help your researches I'm going to give you the total of the main forces active in the Med-Red Sea from 10 June 1940 until 8 Sept. 1943.


BB Carriers Cruisers

Allied 22 11* 76


Italy 7 / 24**


*not considering 7 escort carriers

** not considering the old armored cruiser San Giorgio. The old pre-dreadnought Greek BBs are not considered, like the ancient protected Yugoslavian cruiser Dalmacija, the similar Greek Helli and the old BBs used as gunnery training and drillships Ocean and Condorcet of the French Navy.

The monthly media of presence in the Med. was of 4 Bbs for the Allied and 4 for the Italians (total number x number of months of active service : the 10/6/1940 - 8/9/1943 period), of 2 carriers monthly against 0 and of 15 cruisers monthly on the Allied side in front of 12 Italian ones.

Do your records, gentlemen, count the mission interrupted for loss or serious damage needing repairs outside the Med. or in a yard for the Italians...and you will be surprised.

I give you 10 days.


Bye


Lupo, this is a sfida for you.

About Jack Greene last email I would not be so enthusiastic about Prof. Santoni and Mr. Mattesini's works.
Prof. Santoni is a not serene judge as, in doubt (and often against evidence too) is very harsh with the Italian Navy, whatever is the conduct debated. He let too much to his personal feelings against the actual Marina Militare staff. He was confuted many times during the last 12 years on the Rivista Marittima and on the Storica magazine (expired some years ago) with disastrous results.

Mr. Mattesini, actually the author of more than 90% of the a.m. book based on an old work he made more than twenty years ago for the Italian Air Force historical branch, is better as a searcher but often his conclusions are, at best, debatable. He lacks, then, the basic knowledge of seamanship with quite curious consequences. In his last work on the Bollettino he showed the very dangerous habit to say what he would have do if he had been the admiral in command at the time, not a very serious way to act indeed.

Both the a.m. authors are believers of the old Antonio Trizzino style of the Fifties. It'a commercial way to act quite useful as nothing pay like the scandal but, unfortunately, they seem to search or, even worst, to create their so-called scoops for the more gullible readers.

No, naval history is quite a more serious matter; the guys mentioned are no Roskill, no Morison, no Groner, and no Rohwer. At best Dudley Pope.

Bye

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Posted by FB: Mon Sep 27, 2004

SUPERMARINA wrote:


...

Lupo, this is a sfida for you


Laughing


If I were Lupo I'd guess your name initials. I'd write E.C.

Anyway, welcome aboard
Very Happy


Best regards

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Posted by Supermarina: Mon Sep 27, 2004

"You amaze me, Holmes".
Wink


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Posted by Jim H: Mon Sep 27, 2004

E.C from Feldgrau? Nice to see you post on this site.

Jim

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Posted by Supermarina: Mon Sep 27, 2004

Glad to be aboard.

"Mi unisco alla formazione. Timone al centro, via cosė" (I join the Division, full speed, straight ahead). EC

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Posted by FB: Tue Sep 28, 2004

SUPERMARINA wrote:
"You amaze me, Holmes".
Wink


Laughing


Elementary, Watson
Laughing


Bye

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Posted by Supermarina: Tue Sep 28, 2004

All right, but who are Moriarty and Lestrade?
EC

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Posted by Lupo Solitario: Tue Sep 28, 2004

Ok we need a very bad but intelligent guy and a well-intentioned but stupid one...we have a large choice, isn't it?
Wink


Welcome aboard EC
Very Happy
(a series of whistles here in pure navy style...)

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Posted by Supermarina: Tue Sep 28, 2004

All hands, Mr Lupo.

Thank you, Enrico Cernuschi

PS Anyway the defy remains. Call the ship's company. Mr Lupo, if you please, and try to collect the record of the seriously damaged and sunk main men-of-war in the Med.-Red Sea for the period considered and you would be surprised, like Marylin Monroe song. EC

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Posted by Lupo Solitario: Thu Sep 30, 2004

I'm sorry, Mr. EC, but I've absolutely no way to look for your defy in time
(and I don't want to make a bad image before you
Wink
)

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Posted by Supermarina: Thu Sep 30, 2004

You will be always my favorite moderator, Lupo.
I hope there will be, anyway, some other competitor. On Monday I'll produce the record.

Bye EC
Very Happy


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Posted by JeffreyF: Thu Sep 30, 2004

Hmm, I doubt you will find any takers. How does that song go? Don't tug on Superman's cape, don't spit into the wind and amateurs shouldn't argue with experts.
Laughing


I just say this because I had this as a response to a question I had on google groups recently.
Laughing


Quote:
The main documentation is, indeed, only in Italian, and available through
the "Rivista Marittima" (the official review of the Italian Navy" and the
"Bollettino d' Archivio dell' Ufficio Storico" (the bulletin of the
Historical office of the Italian Navy) All these things are publicly
available, if one has patience with the utter laziness and incompetence
of the Italian civil employers of the defense. The main researcher on this
is Enrico Cernuschi; you perhaps can search on the pages dedicated at the
Rivista Marittima on the Italian Navy's site:


Not to mention I've seen you referred to on several sites with reverence. A question if I may ask. I've seen the action of the Scipione Africano vs British MTB with three different results now. 1 destroyed MTB, 2 destroyed MTB, and 3 destroyed MTB. I also seem to recall that one person stated the British official history for this occasion does something weird like list mtb as casualties that were not actually in theatre. Sorry, I haven't kept note and all the different answers are muddling into my head to create an even crazier result.

Thanks for any clarification.
 

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Posted by Supermarina: Mon Oct 04, 2004

You are too much kind, Jeffrey, I'm an amateur, not an expert.

Anyway, Scipione sunk that night the British MTB 316 and damaged MTBs 260 and 313.
The British, as always, had some racial problems to admit that a man-of-war of theirs, even a small one, was lost by Italian gunfire so wrote, in their HMSO Ships of the Royal Navy: Statement of Losses during the Second World War, ed. 1947, pg. 26, that MTB 316 had been sunk "...by a torpedo from Italian cruisers off Reggio, S. Italy". This was the beginning of the usual smokescreen.
The fact the Italian had recovered, after that night encounter, not only the debris of 316 but a table with the number 305 induced them to believe that another MTB had been lost. It's, however, a good habit among the small coastal forces of all the world to exchange everything which could be useful (weapons, instruments etc.) for the boats ready to sail, so this hypothesis was not a correct one.

OK, Guys, this is it.

The theme was: an intruder who tried, within a closed basin, to affirm his sea control against the insiders.

The Allied (mainly British) fleets suffered the following losses in the Med--Red sea theatre (losses and damages which imposed to retire the men-of-war for repairs outside the a.m. basin stopping so their mission there; on the other side losses and ships damaged and not yet ready at the day of the armistice; only BBs, carriers and cruisers considered, Monitors, fast minelayers, old BBs and cruisers not)

Barham + S D 11/41 (name, + = sunk, S= Submarine, D= German, 11/41= Nov. 1941)
Warspite B D 5/41 (B= bomber)
Valiant AC I 12/41 (AC= attack craft, I = Italian)
Queen Elizabeth AC I 12/41
Renown B I 7/41
Nelson TB I 9/41 (TB= torpedo bomber)
Barham B D 5/41
Hood B I 7/40
------------------
Cavour TB GB (GB=British) 11/40

we could consider too that Royal Soveraing and Ramillies (and the "R" class as a whole, with the older cruisers of the "C" and "D" classes which could, anyway, be used again in an useful way along the Italian Eastern Africa coasts and can not, so, be included in the total of the broken off missions) were considered, after the action off Calabria, July 1940, and off Sardinia, Nov. 1940, no more suitable for use in the Mediterranean theatre; the same for Repulse, which was rejected in May 1941 just before a convoy leaving from Gibraltar into the Western Med. as the air menace was too much hight for that non-modernized ship (The Regia Aeronautica only was notoriously active in that part of the Mediterranean).
Cesare too was classified as worn out in Dec. 1942 and sent to Pola for training purposes only.

*************************************************************
Ark Royal + S D 11/41
Eagle S D + 8/42
Illustrious B D-I 1/41
Formidable B D 5/41
Indomitable B D 8/42
Indomitable TB I 7/43

We can consider Eagle worn out at the end of Dec. 1940 after have sustained minor damages by Italian bombers in July and Oct. 1940.
She came back in the Med. only in Spring 1942.
*************************************************************
Calypso + S I 6/40
Capetown MTB I 4/41
Neptune + M I 12/41 (M=mine)
Liverpool TB I 10/40
Liverpool TB I 6/42
Kent TB I 9/40
York AC I 3/41
Glasgow TB I 12/40
Bonaventure S I 3/41
Phoebe TB I 8/41
Cleopatra S I 7/43
Argonaut S I 12/42
Manchester + MTB I 8/42
Manchester TB I 7/41
Kenya S I 8/42
Cairo + S I 8/42
Nigeria S I 8/42
Aurora M I 12/41
Gloucester + B D 5/41
Calcutta + B D 6/41
Coventry + B D 9/42
Ajax B D 1/43
Southampton + B D 1/41
Fiji B D 6/41
Najad S D 3/42
Dido B D 5/41
Phoebe S D 10/42
Penelope B D 4/42
Galatea + S D 12/41
Newcastele, MTB D 6/42
Hermione S D 6/42
Arethusa, TB D 11/42
Newfoundland S D 7/43
Perth B D 5/41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trento + S GB 6/42
Trieste + B USA 4/43
Zara + N GB 3/41 (N= surface ship)
Fiume + N GB 3/41
Pola + TB and N GB 3/41
Colleoni + N GB 7/40
Bande Nere + S GB 4/42
Da Barbiano + N GB 12/41
Di Giussano + N GB 12/41
Diaz S GB + 2/41
Attendolo + B USA 12/42
Bari + B USA 5/43
Bolzano S GB 8/42
Gorizia B USA 4/43

We can add the cruiser Taranto, disarmed at the end of 1942 in face of the new menaces.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see we have:

a total of 22 Allied BBs against 7 Italian ones (the monthly media was 4 against 4)

a total of 11 carriers against 0 (not counting the escort carriers, which were 7) with a monthly media of 2.

a total of 76 cruisers against 24 Italian ones (the monthly media was 16 against 12).

In front of a (total) strength of 3 against one the Allies suffered:

8 BBs which had to break off their mission in front of 1
(11 at 2 with the worn-out or no more suitable ships included)

6 Carriers which had to do the same (7 counting the conditions of Eagle at the end of 1940)

34 cruisers in the same condiction against 15 Italian ones.

The division of these results between the Italian and German services gives:

Germany 23,5 Italy 24,5

not counting the a.m. cases of Royal Sovereign, Ramillies, Repulse and Eagle, which were all determined by Italian causes.


In detail, the Luftwaffe achieved 14,5 "points" and the Kriegsmarine 9

the Regia Marina gained 14 "points" and the Regia Aeronautica 10,5.

The British were responsible of 10 "points" and the USA of 4, not counting the cruiser Taranto paid off.

Any suggestion gentlemen?

Bye EC


The reality of war is, anyway, not a champion league but traffic and strategical projection. The fundamental traffic within the central basin of the Med. (the Mar Jonio in Italian terms) was possible only by the far cover of the Italian main battle force since the action off Calabria, July 1940, until the invasion of Sicily, July 1943, when the Royal Navy was at least able, courtesy of the US Navy who sent two modern BBs at Scapa Flow, to pick up six BBs against the two Italian ones then available. It was only a temporary lease but, unfortunately, the nerves of the Italian Comando Supremo generals (Ambrosio and Castellano) cracked on 25 July 1943. Had the Regia Marina been able to go on with her correct fleet in being strategy things would have been different, very different. EC

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Posted by Lupo Solitario: Mon Oct 04, 2004

SUPERMARINA wrote:
.

Any suggestion gentlemen?

Bye EC


At least three, Enrico:

1) How do you consider the damages at Vittorio Veneto at Matapan? and Littorio and Duilio after Taranto?

2) I don't see which could have been the "other" use of the fleet in summer 1943 with Sicily practically just in allied hands (and practically Sardinia cut off in few time I fear) OK we could sell high the hide but with which results?

3) It doesn't seem me RE lost head July 25, the coup had been prepared by time...they lost head 45 days after...

(ok you probably have just the answers but questions had to be made
Very Happy
)

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Posted by Supermarina: Mon Oct 04, 2004

/Good questions Lupo, I hope the answers too will be valid.

The Taranto torpedoing is not considered, except for the Cavour, as the ships were able to come back in line before the armistice.
The confront was between two logistical systems. The intruders were numerically stronger but had not the availability, in the Med., of the facilities necessary to repair serious damages, the insiders Italians had.
In July-Sept. 1943 the traffic with Sardinia suffered about a 10% percentage of losses, and was, so, maintained. The tonnage war too was, according to the British opinion expressed in Spring 1943, a failure as the appreciated, correctly, the Axis had still enough tonnage to go on with the actual strength until Autumn 1944. The Italian Navy opinion was just the same. The experience confirmed the Germans were able to maintain the sea lanes in the Balkans and along the Italian and France coasts even with half of the freighters available in Sept. 1943 before the armistice.

Had the Anglosaxon timetable been respected the two most modern British BBs (King George V and Howe) would have sailed for Britain before the end of July. As a consequence, the further, yet planned landing, would have been confined at Reggio and Crotone with the order not to go beyond the Sila mountains for lack of troops until spring 1944 when a new landing in Sardinia and Corsica was forecast as the necessary beginning of the France invasion first time. Provence. We know now, anyway, that the lack of Allied landing crafts was so great they had to postpone the Provence landings until Aug. 1944. Italy would have gained a year, so, facing the eventuality of an armistice without German troops inside her borders, except for southern Italy and the main islands.
The other problem was, according to this scenario, if Stalin would not sign a separate peace. My personal opinion is he would have made a new Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. Mussolini thought the same way.

The order to maintain the two a.m. British BBs in the Med. was accepted, at least, by the Americans, the new master of the Anglo Saxon alliance since March 1943, only after the Duce fall and in a declared way as a consequence of that sudden new fact.

Mussolini's overthrow was planned for years (I published just now a long article about the army maneuvers in this sense) but the 25 July op. was an improvised one. The program was scheduled for Aug. and was accelerated that morning after the King had said he WAS NOT, REPLAT NOT, GOING TO DO ANYTHING AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE LAST NIGHT GREAT COUNCIL OF FASCISM VOTE.
It was only a Latin America style golpe made by a group of criminals (less than 10 peoples) which had the worst consequences not only for Italy but for the world as well.

Bye EC
 

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Posted by Veltro: Tue Oct 05, 2004

Quote:
Mussolini's overthrow was planned for years (I published just now a long article about the army maneuvers in this sense) but the 25 July op. was an improvised one. The program was scheduled for Aug. and was accelerated that morning after the King had said he WAS NOT, REPLAT NOT, GOING TO DO ANYTHING AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE LAST NIGHT GREAT COUNCIL OF FASCISM VOTE.
It was only a Latin America style golpe made by a group of criminals (less than 10 peoples) which had the worst consequences not only for Italy but for the world as well.


Hi supermarina, could you elaborate on this please. a) I'm not clear on what you are stating and b) what do you mean that Mussolini's overthrow was planned years?

Eddy

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Posted by Stefano: Tue Oct 05, 2004

I disagree with you Supermarina. Yes, it's true there had been plots against Mussolini since shortly after the war started going against the Italians, and perhaps even earlier. It's worth noting that there was also a pro-German counterplot. However, without the Grand Council vote, there would have been a very serious chance that the Fascists would have seen Mussolini's arrest as a threat to their power and so they might have rallied to him and ended up fighting with or even ousting the monarchy. The Grand Council vote made it impossible for the Fascists to react once Mussolini was arrested because they had already deposed him. Had there not been the Grand Council vote, I expect the Fascist Grand Council would have felt extremely threatened and, assuming it wasn't arrested as well, I think it might have called on the M Division which was, IIRC, at the time not far north of Rome to come south and "restore order." As it was, the division's commander shot himself upon hearing Mussolini was deposed.

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Posted by Supermarina: Tue Oct 05, 2004

In order, Gentlemen,

my purpose is simply to prove that sea control is not a confrontation between two bills of losses or damages beyond sudden repair. According to Mahan what's necessary is to face the task and the Italian navy task was to grant sea lanes with North Africa, the Balkans, Sicily and along the coasts. She accomplished these tasks.
The fact the frivolous Italian generals nerves cracked is another matter.

The main asset of the Italian war was the main battlefleet. This element only of all the Italian inventory had global relevance.
A counter proof is the vigorous naval guerrilla fought by the Germans (with a minor help by the tiny Fascist Italian Republican Navy) in the Med. since the 8 Sept. 1943 armistice until May 1945. A brilliant performance with no strategic value. Without the Italian BBs the Allied ones too were absent, like the carriers. The gave was yet over and it was only a matter of time. The battle on the seas, the only one which could change the terms of the war, was lost forever.

The Italian Army planned actively to depose (or worst) Mussolini since Autumn 1937 and worked accordingly with the support of the Principi di Piemonte against the declared will of King Victor who had, as his only interest, the future of his own country and not the safety of monarchy in front of the republican spirits of the Duce.

The Great Council vote value on the 25 July 1943 is zero. I suggest giving a look at the famous Prof. Renzo De Felice biography of Mussolini to appreciate the results of his researches. I followed a different path but arrived at the same conclusions. You can find the whole story on three long articles published by Storia Militazare, numbers 100, 131 and 132 with all the archival references.

Anyway, the 25 July night vote did not depose Mussolini and no general shot himself (the division was at the orders of the Console general Alessandro Lusana who give up his command to the general Calvi di Bergolo).

Bye EC
 

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Posted by PipsPriller: Thu Oct 14, 2004

The following is a list I compiled some time ago, accessing the records at the National Archives, The Imperial War Museum, The Royal Navy Museum Research Centre and several other places I can't remember. It only covers Royal Navy losses in the Mediterranean - none of it's Allies - and doesn't include the multitude of small boats that operated in that Theatre eg Trawlers, MTB's harbour vessels, caique's etc.

Even so the list of ships sunk is quite daunting. Add to this the numerous Merchant navy ships sunk (from both sides) and the Med is littered with ruined hulks. It really does drive home just how ferocious and hard fought the battle was to gain naval supremacyin the Mediterranean.


1940
12 June, 1940. HMS Calypso, Cruiser, sunk by RM Submarine Bagnolini S. off Crete.
13 June, 1940. HM Submarine Odin, sunk by the RM Destroyer Strale.
19 June, 1940. HM Submarine Orpheus, sunk by RM Destroyer Turbine off Tobruk.
22 June, 1940. HM Submarine Grampus, sunk by RM MTB's Circe and Clio off Syracuse.
11 July, 1940. HMS Escort, Destroyer, sunk by RM Submarine Marconi.
17 July, 1940. HM Submarine Phoenix, sunk by RM MTB Albatros off Augusta.
1 August, 1940. HM Submarine Oswald, rammed and sunk by RM Destroyer Vivaldi.
23 August, 1940. HMS Hostile, Destroyer, sunk by mine.
15 October, 1940. HM Submarine Rainbow, lost off Calabria, cause unknown.
20 October, 1940. HM Submarine Triad, missing, Mediterranean.
2 December, 1940. HMS Hyperion, Destroyer, sunk by RM Submarine Serpente.
2 December, 1940. HM Submarine Regulus, missing, cause unknown.
18 December, 1940. HM Submarine Triton, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.

1941
10 January, 1941. HMS Southampton, sunk by Luftwaffe West of Malta.
17 January, 1941. HMS Gurkha, Destroyer, sunk by U-133.
31 January, 1941. HMS Huntley, Minesweeper, sunk by Luftwaffe off Mersa Matruh.
23 February, 1941. HMS Terror, Monitor, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.
26 March, 1941. HMS York, Cruiser, sunk by Italian explosive craft in Suda Bay.
31 March, 1941. HMS Bonaventure, Cruiser, sunk by RM Submarine Ambra.
15 April, 1941. HMS Mohawk, Destroyer, sunk by RM Destroyer Tarigo.
27 April, 1941. HMS Wryneck, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.
2 May, 1941. HMS Janus, Destroyer, sunk by mine at Malta.
4 May, 1941. HMS Femoy, Minesweeper, sunk by Regia Aeronautica off Malta.
7 May, 1941. HMS Stoke, Minesweeper, sunk by Regia Aeronautica off Tobruk.
11 May, 1941. HMS Kipling, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.
13 May, 1941. HM Submarine Undaunted, missing off Libya.
20 May, 1941 HMS Widnes, Minesweeper, beached at Suda Bay after damage by Luftwaffe.
21 May, 1941. HMS Juno, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.
22 May 1941. HMS Fiji, Cruiser, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.
22 May, 1941. HMS Gloucester, Cruiser, sunk by Luftwaffe SW of Crete.
22 May, 1941. HMS Greyhound, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe S. of Crete.
23 May, 1941. HMS Kashmir, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.
23 May, 1941. HMS Kelly, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.
28 May, 1941. HMS Imperial, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.
29 May, 1941. HMS Hereward, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe S. of Crete.
1 June, 1941. HMS Calcutta, Cruiser, sunk by Luftwaffe north of Alezandria.
15 June, 1941. HMS Airedale, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica south of Crete.
24 June, 1941. HM Sloop Auckland, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.
27 June, 1941. HMS Diamond, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe.
12 July, 1941. HMS Defender, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.
22 July, 1941. HM Submarine Union, sunk by RM MTB's off Tunisia.
23 July, 1941. HMS Fearless, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica E. of Malta.
30 July, 1941. HM Submarine Cachalot, sunk by RM MTB Papa off Bengazi.
18 August, 1941. HM Submarine P-32, sunk by mine off Tripoli.
23 August, 1941. HM Submarine P-33, sunk by RM MTB's off Pantellaria.
26 October, 1941. HMS Latona, Minelayer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica off Bardia.
2 November, 1941. HM Submarine Tetrach, missing, W. Mediterranean.
13 November, 1941. HMS Ark Royal, Aircraft Carrier, sunk by U- 81.
25 November, 1941. HMS Barnham, Battleship, sunk by U-331.
6 December, 1941. HM Submarine Perseus, sunk by RM Submarine Enrico Tati.
15 December, 1941. HMS Galatea, Cruiser, sunk by U-557 off Alexandria.
17 December, 1941. HMS Neptune, Cruiser, sunk by mines.
19 December, 1941. HMS Kandahar, Destroyer, sunk by mine.
24 December, 1941. HMS Salvia, Corvette, sunk by U-568.
 

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1942
13 January, 1942. HM Submarine Triumph, lost in Aegean, cause unknown.
12 February, 1942. HMS Maori, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe at Malta.
13 February, 1942. HM Submarine Tempest, sunk by RM MTB Circe in the Gulf of Taranto.
24 February, 1942. HMS Dainty, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica off Tobruk.
25 February, 1942. HM Submarine P-38, sunk by RM patrol vessels off Tunisia.
11 March, 1942. HMS Naiad, Cruiser, sunk by U-565.
20 March, 1942. HMS Heythrop, Destroyer, sunk by U-652.
23 March, 1942. HMS Southwold, Destroyer, sunk by mine in Malta.
26 March, 1942. HM Submarine P-39, sunk by Luftwaffe at Malta.
26 March, 1942. HMS Jaguar, Destroyer, sunk by U-652.
26 March, 1942, HMS Legion, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe in Malta.
31 March, 1942. HM Submarine P-36, sunk by Luftwaffe at Malta.
31 March, 1942. HM Submarine Pandora, sunk by Regia Aeronautica at Malta.
1 April, 1942. HMS Sunset, Minesweeper, sunk by Luftwaffe at Malta.
1 April, 1942. HMS Sunset, Minesweeper, sunk by Luftwaffe at Malta.
5 April, 1942. HMS Gallant, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe at Malta.
6 April, 1942. HMS Havock, Destroyer, sunk by RM Submarine Aradam off Cap Bon.
13 April, 1942. HMS Kingston, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe in Malta.
14 April, 1942. HM Submarine Upholder, sunk by RM MTB Pegaso off Tripoli.
16 April, 1942. HMS Lance, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe in Malta.
28 April, 1942. HM Submarine Urge, sunk by RM MTB Pegaso E. Mediterranean.
30 April, 1942. HMS Abingdon, Minesweeper, sunk by Luftwaffe at Malta.
8 May, 1942. HM Submarine Olympus, sunk by mine off Malta.
11 May, 1942. HMS Jackal, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe S. of Crete.
11 May, 1942. HMS Lively, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.
12 June, 1942. HMS Grove, Destroyer, sunk by U-77.
14 June, 1942. HMS Hasty, Destroyer, sunk by German S-Boat (S-55) S. of Crete.
15 June, 1942. HMS Bedouin, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.
16 June, 1942. HMS Hermione, Cruiser, sunk by U-205 off Crete.
16 June, 1942. HMS Nestor, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica S. of Crete.
29 July, 1942. HMS Eridge, Destroyer, sunk by RM MTB's.
6 August, 1942. HM Submarine Thorn, sunk by RM MTB Pegaso off Tobruk.
11 August, 1942. HMS Eagle, Aircraft Carrier, sunk by U-73.
12 August, 1942. HMS Cairo, Cruiser, sunk by RM Submarines Dessie and Axum.
12 August, 1942. HMS Foresight, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica S. of Sicily.
13 August, 1942. HMS Manchester, Cruiser, sunk by RM MTB's off Tunisia.
14 September, 1942. HMS Sikh, Destroyer, sunk by Tobruk coastal battery.
14 September, 1942. HMS Zulu, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.
14 September, 1942. HMS Coventry, Cruiser, sunk by Luftwaffe off Tobruk.
28 September, 1942. HM Submarine Talisman, lost in Sicilian Channel, cause unknown.
9 November, 1942. HMS Broke, Destroyer, sunk by Vichy French artillery off Algiers.
9 November, 1942. HMS Cromer, Minesweeper, sunk by mine off Mersa Matruh.
10 November, 1942. HMS Martin, Destroyer, sunk by U-431.
12 November, 1942. HM Sloop Stork, sunk by U-77.
15 November, 1942. HMS Algerine, Minesweeper, sunk by RM Submarine Ascianghi.
24 November, 1942. HM Submarine Utmost, sunk by RM MTB Groppo off Sicily.
2 December, 1942. HMS Quentin, Destroyer, sunk by Regia Aeronautica.
9 December, 1942. HMS Porcupine, Destroyer, sunk by U-602.
11 December, 1942. HM Submarine Traveller, missing, Gulf of Taranto.
11 December, 1942. HMS Blean, Destroyer, sunk by U-443.
12 December 1942. HMS Holcombe, Destroyer, sunk by U-593.
12 December, 1942. HM Submarine P-222, sunk by RM patrol craft off Naples.
18 December, 1942. HMS Partridge, Destroyer, sunk by U-565.
19 December, 1942. HMS Snapdragon, Corvette, sunk by Luftwaffe E. Mediterranean.
25 December, 1942. HM Submarine P-48, sunk by RM patrol craft off Tunis.
 

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1943
30 January, 1943. HMS Samphire, Corvette, sunk by RM Submarine Platino of Bougie.
1 February, 1943. HMS Welshman, Minelayer, sunk by U-617.
9 February, 1943. HMS Erica, Corvette, sunk by mine off Benghazi.
10 March, 1943. HM Submarine Tigris, missing, Gulf of Naples.
11 March, 1943. HM Submarine Turbulent, sunk by RM patrol vessels off Bastia.
12 March, 1943. HMS Lightning, Destroyer, sunk by German S-Boat.
13 March, 1943. HM Submarine Thunderbolt, sunk by RM Corvette Cicogna off Sicily.
18 March, 1943. HM Submarine Saracen, sunk by RM Corvette Minerva off Bastia.
16 April, 1943. HMS Pakenham, Destroyer, sunk by RM MTB's.
18 April, 1943. HM Submarine Regent, lost in Adriatic, cause unknown.
24 April, 1943. HM Submarine Sahib, sunk by RM Corvette Gabbiano off N. Sicily.
20 May, 1943. HMS Fantome, Minesweeper, sunk by mine E. Mediterranean.
19 August, 1943. HM Submarine Parthian, lost in Adriatic, cause unknown.
6 September, 1943. HMS Puckeridge, Destroyer, sunk by U-617 E. of Gibraltar.
10 September, 1943. HMS Abdiel, Minelayer, sunk by mine off Taranto.
27 September, 1943. HMS Intrepid, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Leros.
9 October, 1943. HMS Carlisle, Cruiser, damaged beyond repair by Luftwaffe attack near Rhodes.
9 October, 1943. HMS Panther, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Rhodes.
13 October, 1943. HMS Hythe, Minesweeper, sunk by U-371.
22 October, 1943. HMS Hurworth, Destroyer, sunk by mine off Kalymnos.
22 October, 1943. HM Submarine Trooper, lost in Aegean, cause unknown.
23 October, 1943. HMS Cromarty, Minwsweeper, sunk by mine in the Strait of Bonifacio.
24 October, 1943. HMS Eclipse, Destroyer,. sunk by mine E. of Kalymnos.
14 November, 1943. HMS Dulverton, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe (Hs295 glider bomb) off Kos.
11 November, 1943. HMS Rockwood, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe in the Aegean Sea.
15 November, 1943. HM Submarine Simoon, sunk by U-565 in Dardanelles.
15 November, 1943. HMS Quail, Destroyer, sunk by mine off Brindisi.
11 December, 1943. HMS Cuckmere, Frigate, sunk by U-223.
12 December, 1943. HMS Tynedale, Destroyer, sunk by U-593.
18 December, 1943. HMS Felixstowe, Minesweeper, sunk by mine off Sardinia.
28 November, 1943. HMS Hebe, Minesweeper, sunk by mine off Bari.
31 December, 1943. HMS Clacton, Minesweeper, sunk by mine off Corsica.


1944
23 January, 1944. HMS Janus, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Anzio.
29 January, 1944. HMS Spartan, Cruiser, sunk by Luftwaffe.
18 February, 1944. HMS Penelope, Cruiser, sunk by U-410 off Anzio.
25 February, 1944. HMS Inglefield, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Anzio.
29 March, 1944. HMS Laforey, Destroyer, sunk by U-223.
15 June, 1944. HM Submarine Sickle, lost in Adriatic, cause inknown.
14 December, 1944. HMS Aldenham, Destroyer, sunk by mine off Pola, Italy.

1945
12 January, 1945. HMS Regulus, Minesweeper, sunk by mine off Corfu.

------------------

Posted by JeffreyF: Sun Dec 05, 2004

Bored at work and going over the list above I believe I accounted for 62 ships of all types lost to causes most likely attributed to the Italians. I did some guessing on the mines. I credited the ones that seemed more likely to have been dropped by LW to the Germans.

Breakdown was
1940 - 13
1941 - 20
1942 - 21
1943 - 8

Although I think maybe one or two ships on that list may be possible to contribute to the Italians instead of the Germans. I seem to recall the question of whether Z.1007 or Stukas sunk one ship. There is a photograph from a book that shows the destroyer as it is bombed from one of the Z.1007s that were dropping bombs, IIRC. It's an Italian book though but I'm gonna convince the local bookstore in my family's town to start selling these books the next time I go back to Italy. They thought I was crazy before...
Laughing


[edit]
21 May 1941. HMS Juno, Destroyer, sunk by Luftwaffe off Crete.

This is the one I was rambling about above.
[/edit]


----

Another curiosity of mine is a tidbit that was brought up that any repairs that took less than thirty days didn't require the paperwork be kept. I believe this was already mentioned in this thread as I believe it was Supermarina who was mentioned as the one finding this out. It makes you kind of wonder if this was causing the staff to be overworked or something. Making the Brits lose the war by overwhelming them with paperwork!
Laughing
I wonder how much bomb splinter damage happened that we will never know about. Please realize that this is just my crazy conspiracy theory side hoping to make the Italians look better. As I imagine the material purchases required and dockyard still kept a log of work done somewhere if not in the ship's records.
 

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Posted by Jim H: Sun Dec 05, 2004

Great work PipsPriller!

--------------

Posted by JeffreyF: Mon Dec 06, 2004

Quote:
"I have been researching the history of HMS Juno, as my cousin, Bernard William Woolmer (able seaman) was lost with Juno. There are a number of differing thoughts on who sank the ship, one of which states that the ship was bombed by Italian bombers from Scarpanto. The bomber alleged to have sunk Juno was a Cant Z.1007 from the 50th Gruppo piloted by a Lt.Morassuti. It is more likely that this version is correct as Juno was hit by three bombs which sank her in 2 minutes. The Junkers JU 87B could only carry 1 large bomb & 2 smaller bombs & it is doubtful that all three would hit in one attack. Also, one eyewitness states that the three bombs were part of a stick of five two of which fell astern."


http://home.freeuk.com/johndillon/juno.htm

What type of bombs would the Z.1007 have been using? 100kg high explosive or 160kg semi-ap bombs or heavier?
 

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Dili

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What type of bombs would the Z.1007 have been using? 100kg high explosive or 160kg semi-ap bombs or heavier?
at that time they should be 50T 100T 100M(sort of SAP) or 250T weights were slight different than nomenclature.

Never found when the 160 P was operational but i don't think they were in first half of 1941
 
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