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Carabinieri

John Bannerman

New Member
Hi All - any one got ANY data other than the blindingly obvious about the CCRR during WW2. I am more interested in the locations and size of deployments but any data would be most welcome (I research and design the TSWW game series and am looking for info on the CCRR for Balkan Fury II). For more on the games check out our FB page (TSWW Games) and www.tkc-games.com.

I am aware that they were used for internal security as well as the more normal MP type stuff, and that they had a fearsome reputation as fighters when encountered by the Allies (which was infrequent).

Have a great weekend.

John
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
John

I have looked at your series of games to get a sense of scale. I am not sure what you are looking for as the carabinieri didn't operate at the level your games are set. Given the time span you are looking at (I assume 1939-1943), that is a lot of ground to cover.

For example, looking at the 9ª Armata in Greece in November 1940: army had 177ª sez. CC.RR.; III C.A. had two sez. from the II btg. CC.RR. XXVI C.A. had the 1ª e 2ª cp. gr. mob. CC.RR./A and the 388ª sez. CC.RR.; and the d.f. «Parma» had the 88ª e 89• sez. CC.RR.

I took a quick look at Le operazione delle unità italiane in Jugoslavia to see what is available (1941-43). No much. Besides the sezione CC.RR. in the divisions, the 2ª Armata (Slovenia e Dalmazia) had the IX, XII, XIV, XV, XVI, XX, XXII, XXIII, and XXV btg. CC.RR. The XIV C.A. in Montenegro had the gruppo carabinieri di Cattaro and the XIX btg. carabinieri mobilitato. No locations are provided. As you likely realize, none of these units operated as battalions except as administrative/logistical headquarters; the sezioni operated separately throughout the AOR. Finding locations and dates in theater would be some serious research using not-readily available sources.

Finally I scanned Le operazioni delle unità italiane nel settembre-ottobre 1943. This volume has some pretty good OB data, but the chapters covering the armies in the Balkans are quite light in this regards. Not a single CC.RR. unit is listed or is mentioned as either unità minori, elementi vari, or truppe e servizi di C.A.

Some of our Italian members might have books and other sources that can provide more information. I am wondering whether you are including the numerous btg. GaF, T.M., Guardia di Finanza, and presidiari which numbers wise, had a much greater presence in the Balkans in 41-43.

Not much help I'm afraid.

Pista! Jeff
 

John Bannerman

New Member
Hi Jeff
Thank you.

That is way more information than we have. At 15 miles to the hex TSWW does not generally need a bunch of junk units running about UNLESS there are a load of partisans being a pain in the backside. That is the case in the USSR and even more so in the Balkans. The idea I have is to group them together to provide some capability for the Italians (which otherwise is missing) into battalion equivalents.

Locations are useful - but not vital.

As to the GaF they are in the game currently as static border assets but I believe some may need to be "mobilised" to provide additional security forces. The others would be of interest as well as I suspect we need a bit more than we have currently to correctly show the forces deployed. There is also the hoary question of garrisons for non-German occupied Islands in the Aegean which seems to be badly documented in data we have (I know where more or less every German asset is in general terms, and certainly good enough for the game).

In general TSWW has a combination of tools for the players to utilise - and the partisan war is largely fought out by "junk" units which have one key function - an Anti-Partisan capability in terms of zone of influence. That is crucial as line combat units in most of Europe are hard to come by for the players, and often are tied up in the front in any case. Where they were used if (and its a big if) they could bring their firepower to bear, they tended to hammer partisans into oblivion... but normally the partisans managed to evade. This means we have a bunch of nasty rules to show how ineffectual forces in partisan warfare really were (the much vaunted Soviet effort behind AG Mitte in 1944 merely delayed or affected 5% of total German rail movement for example, and in many areas units reported a decline in partisan activity once the main forces kicked of Bagration. In short its a side show for most areas - but one which would be very useful to show.

Cheers

John
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
John

The best I can offer at this time is for you to look at this thread https://comandosupremo.com/forums/index.php?threads/order-of-battle-r-e-sep-1943.103/

It is the OB as of 8 September 1943. As you read the thread, note the concerns we have with some of this information. I have been verifying what data I can, but I don't have all the possible sources that were used by the original creator. I feel the unverified information is more suspect for those units that are in Italy proper than those that are overseas. An assumption is that those T.M., CC.RR., GaF, etc. units, once deployed to places like the Balkans, remained there until Sept 43.

I have just reworked the 2ª Armata data. The original poster didn't have lists for the 9ª Armata or the forces in Greece/Greek islands. I was planning to add those from my sources. I will move it up on my to do list, but I am not sure when it will get done.

Pista! Jeff
 

John Bannerman

New Member
Hi Jeff
Thank you. I am examining the information as I write this and have passed it onto my research team to see if we can add to/clarify the information in the thread. If we get anything I will put it up or ask my team to do so as I think the world needs a better handle on what the Italians did (and did not do) during WW2.

Whilst many units were of low calibre, many were not, and fought well over an extended period of time. I have read in Glantz extensive Soviet commentary on the CSIR/ARMIR and they, for all their faults, were not scared of a fight.

If anyone on the list wishes information on the Japanese military, please ask them to get in touch via email (john-bannerman@live.co.uk) as I may be able to help due to contacts I have.

Cheers

John
 
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