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Division Murge in operation Weiss

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by GLADIVM » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:29 pm
Again I have some doubt about the behaviour of another italian division serving in Balkans during WWII .
In this case the culprit is Infantry Division Murge defeated by partizans in the second half of february 1943 when partizans were trying to cross Neretva to escape Axis net .
Yugoslavs say that they defeated Murge in pitched battle and after that the division was well destroyed . The History Office of Italian Army say a different and quite strange story .
Third battalion of 259 Infantry Reg of Murge was garrisoning the town of Prozor and with partizans advancing towards it had not been put on alert and soldiers being market day went on leave unarmed in the city to enjoy a day off , partizans dressed as peasants or even in captured italian uniforms surprised the unaware soldiers and captured them without much fight .
In their help was sent Second battalion of 260 Infantry reg and this battalion was ambushed at Jablanizza , after fighting for a few days also this force had to surrender , despite promise of having their lives spared , promptly after surrender all officers were executed .

If Italian USSME is correct it means that most of Murge was not destroyed but only one third of its force ( which is a lot anyhow ) and that circumstances denote at least laxity in command .

I would be glad for any confirmation of Murge vicissitudes during Weiss

Thanks

Yours

GLADIVM

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by Koca Popovic » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:18 pm
GLADIVM wrote:Again I have some doubt about the behaviour of another italian division serving in Balkans during WWII .
In this case the culprit is Infantry Division Murge defeated by partizans in the second half of february 1943 when partizans were trying to cross Neretva to escape Axis net .
Yugoslavs say that they defeated Murge in pitched battle and after that the division was well destroyed . The History Office of Italian Army say a different and quite strange story .
Third battalion of 259 Infantry Reg of Murge was garrisoning the town of Prozor and with partizans advancing towards it had not been put on alert and soldiers being market day went on leave unarmed in the city to enjoy a day off , partizans dressed as peasants or even in captured italian uniforms surprised the unaware soldiers and captured them without much fight .
In their help was sent Second battalion of 260 Infantry reg and this battalion was ambushed at Jablanizza , after fighting for a few days also this force had to surrender , despite promise of having their lives spared , promptly after surrender all officers were executed .

If Italian USSME is correct it means that most of Murge was not destroyed but only one third of its force ( which is a lot anyhow ) and that circumstances denote at least laxity in command .

I would be glad for any confirmation of Murge vicissitudes during Weiss

Thanks

Yours

GLADIVM

Mr. GLADIVM,

as the partisans were nearing Prozor, the operation "Weiss" was almost a month old. A month of heavy fighting in winter conditions, not only for the Wehrmacht and NDH troops, but also for the RE: Division "Sassari" lost 159 dead and 650 wounded until 22. February in fighting around Kulen Vakuf (Talpo, Dlamzia III, p.42-45). Being no doubt informed about these events, I find it extremly hard to believe that the commander of Murge, or of the VI Army corps failed to notify the garrison of the danger coming their way, or that the garrison commander (all the widespread stories of the inefficiency of the Italians notwithstanding) would have failed to sound the alarm. Apart from that the town itself was fortified since October 1942 (Operation "Dinara").
So, the commander of the town fortified for at least 4 months aware of the fact that the attack was imminent gives a day off to his complete battalion during a major operation only to be captured by a few infiltrated (how much of them could be actualy infiltrated given the town's size and garrison without raising any suspicion) partisans? Wouldn't say so.

Yugoslav version sounds much more plausible: first attack on February 17 failed due to insufficient preparation and strong resistance of a fortified enemy. Second attack, a day later, succeeds.

As for the casaulties: Prozor was garrisoned by a full batallion (641 men), and very few (if any) made their way out (Talpo, Dlmazia III, p.53-56).
Acording to the same source (p.57) Jablanica was lost on February 23 with it's whole garrison of more than 700.
Dedijer, albeit in his diary, claims IIRC (sorry, don't have it with me) that the Italians have lost some 1200 men dead and wounded and several hundred prisoners. I believe that these figures, quoted from "Feldgrau"

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15058&highlight=murge

at the bottom, are the official Yugoslav statistic.

At the beginning of "March negotiations" between Germans and partisans, partisans offered to exchange 600 Italian soldiers and 15 officers they had as prisoners (most of these came from Prozor and Jablanica). For the fascimile of the German memoranda on the matter see:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=78201&highlight=

first post, second scan.

As for the executions: Dedijer mentions "the whole 1/259" being put to death in Prozor, and bodies thrown into Neretva. I sincerely doubt that all the survivors were eliminated, but the officers most likely. As a grim confirmation, older people from Jablanica still remember the Italian corpses flowing down the river in large numbers.
Still, they were needed as strecher-bearers and drivers (see below), and Djilas (diaries again) remembers that there were still some 300 Italians with the surrounded partisans in Montenegro in June 1943-again the same form Prozor and Jablanica.

Vast quantities of equipment were lost-let's just quote the report of German major Strecker who has been exchanged after being captured in March 1943 during the closing phases of "Weiss":

"...I personaly saw 8 howitzers and 6 mountain guns in the Prozor-Jablanica sector. At Prozor and Rama they captured a large quantities of ammunition; at Rama supposedly 3 wagons of artilery and 2 waggons of rifle and mortar ammunition. They also have some 20 tanks, of which I saw 11 in Prozor-Jablanica sector. Drivers were partly Italians who volunteered to serve with the partisans...In the night of 9/10 March there were some 18 Italian vehicles,supposedly captured at Prozor and Rama moving along the Prozor-Rama-Jablanica road..." (Miso Lekovic, "Martovski pregovori 1943", p.127,reference to AVII, NAV-N-T-315,r.2271, s.1448-52; 1461-5)

Hope this helps,

Komdiv Koca

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by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:15 am
Thanks Koca ,

The USSME book describes the episode as " incredibil " but the fact that they mention such a self deprecating episode gives some credence to it .

Also during Iugoslavia occupation morale of i was often low and sometimes
italians fought hard while in other instances gave up almost without a fight ,

I am triyng to check additional sources to see if possible to get a definitive
answer to this episode .

Thyanks again for yr help

Yours

GLADIVM
 

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by Koca P
by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:26 pm
Dear Koca ,

Personally I would swallow much easier the fact that an italian battalion was soundly defeated by partisans than showing how fools Murge officers were , anyhow the USSME writers might have had a different prospective and they wrote a long way back around 30 years , times were different and so were peoples .

At the moment I cannot get Talpo book but should be able to read it next year , and if come across some infos about Murge will surely inform .

About the OOB pls post and will do my best to translate , how many pages is it ?
I checked yr mentioned thread but have no infos about those attacks ,anyhow as am researching the italian occupation period might come across something and will let you know .

Yours

GLADIVM
povic » Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:57 am
Mr. GLADIVM,

The USSME book describes the episode as " incredibil " but the fact that they mention such a self deprecating episode gives some credence to it .

I think it's more of a case where those who wrote the story simply couldn't/wouldn't swalow that the full batallion of regular army, well provisioned and fortified was overun in a frontal attack by guerillas (and communist at that). I believe that even contemporary Italian documents would repeat the same story ("Only we can defeat ourselves"). Still, I would very much like to see some of these,for I could be wrong. Talpo would do us all good.

As a matter of fact I have a fascimile of the first page of the order of the 2nd Army to CO 6th Corps "asking for investigation in the Prozor and Neretva valley matter" (Lekovic, ibid,p.250). I could scan it, and you/and other fellow members could help in translation (unfortunately, I can't read Italian).

As for the Italians fighting well, I would cite the Pljevlja attack on 1.December 1941, when partisans suffered some 500 casaulties.

BTW, have you seen this thread:

Clashes in Yugoslavia-confirmation needed

Could you provide any additional info?

Cheers,

Komdiv Koca

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by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:26 pm
Dear Koca ,

Personally I would swallow much easier the fact that an italian battalion was soundly defeated by partisans than showing how fools Murge officers were , anyhow the USSME writers might have had a different prospective and they wrote a long way back around 30 years , times were different and so were peoples .

At the moment I cannot get Talpo book but should be able to read it next year , and if come across some infos about Murge will surely inform .

About the OOB pls post and will do my best to translate , how many pages is it ?
I checked yr mentioned thread but have no infos about those attacks ,anyhow as am researching the italian occupation period might come across something and will let you know .

Yours

GLADIVM

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by Lupo Solitario » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:12 pm
really interested in any translation work...
:wink:


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by Koca Popovic » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:13 pm
About the OOB pls post and will do my best to translate , how many pages is it ?

It's a relatively small copy, you shouldn't have any problems translating, given off course you can see corectly all of the words. I'll try to scan it tommorow and will post it right away.

Cheers,

Komdiv Koca

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by Koca Popovic » Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:21 am
Sorry gentlemen, no scans today-I forgot to take the book when leaving for university...
:roll:


Gladivm,

do you have any (Italian) information concerning the defeats of "Taurinense" on 6. April (In Schmider's words:"... which ended in heavy casaulties for three batallions of the division...p.272), "Ferrara" ("...lost a complete batallion on 2nd of May...,ibid) and "similar losses" on the outskirts of Podgorica (14-18 May)?

Thanks,

Koca
 

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by GLADIVM » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:43 pm
At the moment these dates do not ring a bell , but will check further and let you know if find something .

Yours

GLADIVM

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by Koca Popovic » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:41 am
I have the scan,reiszed it as required by the forum software, and it weights 172 Kb. The problem is that only 50 is allowed. What now?

Cheers,

Komdiv Koca

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by Lupo Solitario » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:18 am
send it privately...

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by Koca Popovic » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:51 am
http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=murgezscomsndosupremofc8.jpg

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by FB » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:03 am
I can post an OOB for Murge (and/or Taurinense and/or Ferrara) Div(s) at Aug 31, 1943 if anyone is interested.

Let me know.

Best regards

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by Koca Popovic » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:13 am
FB wrote:I can post an OOB for Murge (and/or Taurinense and/or Ferrara) Div(s) at Aug 31, 1943 if anyone is interested.

Let me know.

Best regards

I would be much interested. Thanks in advance,

koca

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by Lupo Solitario » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:31 am
me, too

come to traslation...

date: March 5, 1943
Object: Last February facts in Neretva Valley

Text: The sum of recents facts in Neretva Valley, which had caused in very few days the total distruction of 3 battalions, 2 batteries and 1 section and other minor units - with a total loss, at a first glance, estimated in about 2300 people, 2000 rifles, 170 automatic weapons, 14 artillery guns, 11 tanks, 45 trucks, more stores of food, ammo and other materials - openly can't, for the heavy material consequnences and of other kind, be taken as an unlucky episode to leave to memory records.
It must - also for the lessons to be learned for the future - be done light on facts, fixing guiles (which for Prozor presidium are evident by narrations of survivors of III/259th, attached) either for what concerns preparation, taking in mind that partisan menace from west was well known and this command had called for attention on it more than a time, either during development of real operation (actions performed by presidiums and units involved...

[here stops the text]
 

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by FB » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:54 am
:lol:


Somehow I knew you would be interested...

154th Infantry Division Murge

CO: Gen. Edoardo Quarra Sito
CoS: Lt. Col. Galliano Carracini
Command in Senj (Segna)
Garrisoned Territory: Between Senj and Vratnik Pass; Sector Karlobag (Carlopago) - Vrata.

Forces

- 259th Inf. Rgt. in Prgomet, North of Traù, in course of rebuilding after the losses during the winter campaign; some units, which constituted the nucleus of the regiment, were displaced between Spalato and Sebenico and constituted the so called Raggruppamento di Punta Planka (Punta Planka Group);

- 260 Inf. Rgt. Command with one Inf. Company, one gun Platoon, 1 MG Platoon in Klaricevac; I Btl and 260th Gun Cp. at Vratnik; II Btl. at Senjiska Draga; III Btl. and 260th MG Cp. at Franciskovac;

- 154th Arty. Rgt. on two Groups (one of 75/27 guns on 2 Btrs, 8 guns; one of 100/22 guns on one and a half Btrs., 5 guns) near various Inf. units placed around Senj; Ammo and Food Unit (Reparto Munizioni Viveri)

- 311st Inf. Rgt. assigned to Murge (Command, part of I Btl, MG and mortar Cps at S. Kriz; 3rd Cp. of I Btl. at Kosik and 4th Cp. at Krivi Put. The II (at Vratima) and III Btl. (at Delnice weren't part of the Division. At armistice, Rgt. Command was at Delnice.

- 118th and 119th Carabinieri Sections; CLIV Eng. Btl. (154th Artieri Cp., 254th Telegrafisti and Marconisti Cp.); CLIV MG Btl. (at Ljubesini and Glavcic); 136th Medic Section (Sezione Sanità); 1119th Divisional Mixed Motortransport Section (Autosezione Mista Divisionale. The book reports 1119 autosezione. I don't know about the correctness of the number, it seems to me that there's a "1" in excess); minor units and services.

Army Corps assets assigned to Murge in Senj:

- LXVI Arty. Group of 152/13 howitzers, on two Btrs. (6 how.);

- 1st, 2nd and 10th GaF Cps.

- 2nd Cp. of CCXLIX Mobile Territorial Btl;

- one "L" Tank Cp. (Squadrone) of San Giusto, less two Platoons. Only one efficient tank.

Statistical evaluation made by SMRE (Stato Maggiore Regio Esercito):
Occupation duties Division. Combat Ready (Idonea a combattere)
Effective Force:
- Officers: 87%
- NCOs and Troop: 66%.
Equipment and Transport means:
- Animals: 50%
- Trucks: 50%
- Special Trucks: 100%
Weaponry: complete
Units never summed more than 5.500 men

The OoB comes from various sources: Relations of the CO and CoS and from USSME. The Statistical evaluation refers to the existing situation at Aug. 31st, 1943.

Source: Non Solo Armistizio, by Gino Bambara, Vannini Editrice.

I tried to use the special characters present in slavic languages, but my keybord doesn't have all of them. Mother tongue readers will, I hope, excuse my "killing" of their language.

Tomorrow I'll post Taurinense and Ferrara data.

Best regards

*EDIT*: added the last sentence of the statistical evaluation, that I forgot to write yesterday.

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by FB » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:19 pm
I forgot to add that in the mentioned book there's the following sentence about 259th Inf. Rgt.:

What was left of the 259th Inf. Rgt., never completely rebuilt, was placed at Perkovic, halfway between Spalato and Sebenico, at the order of its new CO Col. Carlo Zedda. To these scarce troops, not superior to three Companies with several young "complemento" Officers recently arrived from Italy, was assigned one Btl of the Fourth Bersaglieri Regiment. This gave birth to the Raggruppamento di Punta Planka...

Best regards

P.S.: the abovementioned 1119th unit is correct: in another page of the book there's the reproduction of an original document where it is clearly indicated its number.

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by FB » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:55 pm
1st Alpini Division Taurinense

CO Gen. Lorenzo Vivalda
CoS: Lt. Col. Carlo Ciglieri
Command at Niksic
Garrisoned Territory: Sector among Niksic, Viluse, Grahovo

Forces:

- 3rd Alpini Rgt. (Exilles, Fenestrelle and Pinerolo Btls.)

- 4th Alpini Rgt. (Ivrea, Aosta and Intra Btls.)

- 1st Alpini Arty Rgt. (Susa and Aosta Groups)

- I Mixed Alpini Eng. Btl; CXVI MG GaF Btl; one GdF Cp; 411st and 412nd Carabinieri Sections;

- Sanitary Direction; 609th, 610th, 636th, 637th Field Hospitals, 3rd and 305th Sanitary Sections;

- 103rd Transport Unit for Alpini Division (Autoreparto per Divisione Alpina); 105th Catering/Supplies Section; 60th Breadmakers Squad with Wiess ovens; 23rd and 24th Mule Trains Units; part of the 6th Light Tank Cp. ("L" Tanks).

Statistical evaluation:

Combat ready Division
Effective force:
- Officers: 93%; NCOs and Troop: 88%
Equipment and Transport means:
- Animals: 70%
- Trucks: 100%
- Special trucks: 100%
Divisional wagons lacking
Weaponry: complete

Best regards

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by FB » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:09 pm
155th Infantry Division Emilia

CO: Gen. Ugo Buttà
CoS: Lt. Col. Vittorio Alfieri
Command at Herzeg-Novi (Castelnuovo), near Cattaro
Garrisoned Territory: Cattaro Province

Forces:

- 119th Inf. Rgt.

- 120th Inf. rgt.

- 155th Arty. Rgt.

- CCLV MG Btl; CLV Mixed Eng. Btl.; LXXXV former CC.NN.Btl., 135th Voluntary Anticommunist Formation; minor units and services

Reinforce Units:

- XVII 149/35 Arty Group;

- XXV Mixed Carabinieri Btl;

- 415th 81mm Mortar Cp.;

- 291st Garrison Cp.;

- 4th GdF Cp.

Statistical evaluation:

Combat ready Division
Effective force:
- Officers: 98%
- NCOs and Troop: 80%
Equipment and Transport means:
- Animals: 50%
- Trucks: 50%
- Special trucks: 100%
Weaponry: complete but for one 47/32 company

Best regards

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by FB » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:11 pm
Of course the source of all these info, is always the same. i.e. the book mentioned in the Murge post.

Best regards
 

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by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:20 am
Regarding Murge during Weiss operation after checking various sources, I found some info in Mario Dassovich book " Fronte Jugoslavo 1943 " this book while not being complete is still a good source as the author often makes reference to Talpo and Bambara books citing them .

It seems that Italian information service in the area of Prozor was far from effective and that the substitute C.O. at the time believed that partizans movements towards Prozor were just a ruse and would instead attack Metkovic , so he did not alert troops which were unprepared when attack came on 15 th (probably the market day referred by USSME ) and did put up
an effective defence . Within 17th italian resistance ended and the main culprit is identified by Bambara in the divisional substitute Commander, identified only by his initials " L. G. " because during the fighting he gave wrong orders and was never on top of the situation . Who was He?

Concerning the second battalion of 260 IR, it seems that was ambushed and destroyed when on his way , not to help Prozor , to relieve the garrison besieged at Jablanica . This motorized moving through a difficult at night was ambushed and destroyed around Dreznica . Jablanica fort surrendered on 23 february when without ammunitions , water & food officers decided to give up fight to avoid further carnage , and promptly all officers were shot with most of their men .

Yours

GLADIVM

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by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:26 am
For FB ,

In the Murge OOB is indicated that force never exceeded 5,500 men , does this mean that at end august 43 there were 5,500 only or that during all its presence in Jugoslavia Murge never had more than 5,500 men ?

Dassovich in his books cites Bambara " L a Guerra di Liberazione in Jugoslavia " indicating a Murge force in Feb 43 of 9,500 men .

Could you please clarify this for me , I know that Italian divisions always much lower a force than that established by rules but it seems strange if Murge never reached more than 5,500 soldiers .

Thanks

Yours

GLADIVM

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by Lup
by FB » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:14 am
GLADIVM wrote:For FB ,

In the Murge OOB is indicated that force never exceeded 5,500 men , does this mean that at end august 43 there were 5,500 only or that during all its presence in Jugoslavia Murge never had more than 5,500 men ?

Dassovich in his books cites Bambara " L a Guerra di Liberazione in Jugoslavia " indicating a Murge force in Feb 43 of 9,500 men .

Could you please clarify this for me , I know that Italian divisions always much lower a force than that established by rules but it seems strange if Murge never reached more than 5,500 soldiers .

Thanks

Yours

GLADIVM

As far as I've understood the 5.500 men total force for the Division refers to the situation after the winter campaign. Even if under rebuilding, the division never exceeded 5.500 men in total. This, I think, is the meaning of the sentence.

Also, one thing that probably is not very clear in what I posted before: all the OoB are gathered by the author (who was, btw, an Officer in Murge Division) from several sources, institutional and not, also from a couple of Jugoslav authors and Italian ones. They try to depict the situation of the various units examined at the moment of the armistice. The statistical evaluation, on the other hand, depicts the situation on Aug. 31 1943. The source is the relation about the consistency of the various units that SMRE sent, in the same date, to Comando Supremo and Ministero della Guerra.

Best regards

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by FB » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:18 am
Lupo Solitario wrote:FB your last post is about the 155th Infantry Division Emilia, not the 23th Ferrara....

:oops:


You are absolutely correct. I'm sorry. And I don't understand how I could make such a mistake. I'll make anothe post for Ferrara. I'll correct the one about Emilia and leave it here. Maybe someone is interested anyhow.

Thanks for pointing the mistake out, Lupo.

Ciao
o Solitario » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:05 am
FB your last post is about the 155th Infantry Division Emilia, not the 23th Ferrara....

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by FB » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:32 am
23rd Infantry Division Ferrara

CO: Gen. Antonio Franceschini (when he assumed the command of XIV Army Corps, as a consequence of the capture of Gen. Roncaglia, he was substituted by Gen. Giovanni Stirati, Infantry Commander of Ferrara Div.)
CoS: Lt. Col. Massimiliano Picciocchi
Command at Cetinje
Garrisoned Territory: sector among Podgorica - Cetinje - Cevo - Budva - Antivari

Forces:

- 47th Inf. Rgt.

- 48th Inf. Rgt.

- 14th Arty Rgt.

- XXIII Mortar Btl (81mm); 23rd AT Gun Cp.; one "L" Tank Cp.; 23rd mixed transmission Cp.; 58th Eng. Cp. (Artieri); 61st Photoelctric Section; LXXX former CC.NN Btl.; minor units and services

Statistical evaluation:

Incomplete Division.
Effective force:
- Officers: 99%
- NCOs and Troop: 104%
Equipment and Transport means:
- Animals: 60%
- Trucks: 80%
- Special trucks: 50%
Weaponry: complete less a 20mm AA Btr.

Best regards.
 

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by Koca Popovic » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:10 am
Many thanks to your contributions, gentlemen. If we continue in the same fashion, this will be the best on-line resource on Murge in February '43
:)


Cheers,

Komdiv Koca

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by Koca Popovic » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:18 am
Oh yes, another thing: can anyone provide the dislocation of the Murge units in February 1943? I understand that 259th Regiment held Prozor and Jablanica with one btl. apiece. What about Konjic? Division's HQ was in Mostar at the time, yes?

Cheers,

Koca

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by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:34 pm
Always in Dassovich book , citing Talpo as source , he says that Murge had sizable garrisons ( one battalion each ) only in Prozor Jablanica and Mostar Divisional HQ . Murge garrisoned the area of Neretva Valley and Rama Valley and had many small units located at Konjic , Rama , Gornja Gabrovica , Ostrozac , Brdani , Zuglic , Prenj, Gracanica , Gracac , Gorica , Bradina , Dreznica and guarding roads and bridges posts at : Bridge Lucac , Bridge Vojno , Steel Bridge , Duge Curve .
During Weiss smaller garrisons , a too easy prey for partizans were recalled into bigger places as Konjc , Rama , Prozor , Jablanica .

Obviously for a force so pread was difficult to mount an effective resistance to partizans desperate to open a road of escape .

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by Koca Popovic » Mon May 14, 2007 11:53 am
Any new info on the battle?
:)


Cheers,

Koca

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by GLADIVM » Tue May 15, 2007 3:16 am
Not yet , I must get Talpo book first and then might say something more

Will keep all of you posted .

Yours

GLADIVM
 
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