by GLADIVM » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:29 pm
Again I have some doubt about the behaviour of another italian division serving in Balkans during WWII .
In this case the culprit is Infantry Division Murge defeated by partizans in the second half of february 1943 when partizans were trying to cross Neretva to escape Axis net .
Yugoslavs say that they defeated Murge in pitched battle and after that the division was well destroyed . The History Office of Italian Army say a different and quite strange story .
Third battalion of 259 Infantry Reg of Murge was garrisoning the town of Prozor and with partizans advancing towards it had not been put on alert and soldiers being market day went on leave unarmed in the city to enjoy a day off , partizans dressed as peasants or even in captured italian uniforms surprised the unaware soldiers and captured them without much fight .
In their help was sent Second battalion of 260 Infantry reg and this battalion was ambushed at Jablanizza , after fighting for a few days also this force had to surrender , despite promise of having their lives spared , promptly after surrender all officers were executed .
If Italian USSME is correct it means that most of Murge was not destroyed but only one third of its force ( which is a lot anyhow ) and that circumstances denote at least laxity in command .
I would be glad for any confirmation of Murge vicissitudes during Weiss
Thanks
Yours
GLADIVM
--------------
by Koca Popovic » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:18 pm
Mr. GLADIVM,
as the partisans were nearing Prozor, the operation "Weiss" was almost a month old. A month of heavy fighting in winter conditions, not only for the Wehrmacht and NDH troops, but also for the RE: Division "Sassari" lost 159 dead and 650 wounded until 22. February in fighting around Kulen Vakuf (Talpo, Dlamzia III, p.42-45). Being no doubt informed about these events, I find it extremly hard to believe that the commander of Murge, or of the VI Army corps failed to notify the garrison of the danger coming their way, or that the garrison commander (all the widespread stories of the inefficiency of the Italians notwithstanding) would have failed to sound the alarm. Apart from that the town itself was fortified since October 1942 (Operation "Dinara").
So, the commander of the town fortified for at least 4 months aware of the fact that the attack was imminent gives a day off to his complete battalion during a major operation only to be captured by a few infiltrated (how much of them could be actualy infiltrated given the town's size and garrison without raising any suspicion) partisans? Wouldn't say so.
Yugoslav version sounds much more plausible: first attack on February 17 failed due to insufficient preparation and strong resistance of a fortified enemy. Second attack, a day later, succeeds.
As for the casaulties: Prozor was garrisoned by a full batallion (641 men), and very few (if any) made their way out (Talpo, Dlmazia III, p.53-56).
Acording to the same source (p.57) Jablanica was lost on February 23 with it's whole garrison of more than 700.
Dedijer, albeit in his diary, claims IIRC (sorry, don't have it with me) that the Italians have lost some 1200 men dead and wounded and several hundred prisoners. I believe that these figures, quoted from "Feldgrau"
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15058&highlight=murge
at the bottom, are the official Yugoslav statistic.
At the beginning of "March negotiations" between Germans and partisans, partisans offered to exchange 600 Italian soldiers and 15 officers they had as prisoners (most of these came from Prozor and Jablanica). For the fascimile of the German memoranda on the matter see:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=78201&highlight=
first post, second scan.
As for the executions: Dedijer mentions "the whole 1/259" being put to death in Prozor, and bodies thrown into Neretva. I sincerely doubt that all the survivors were eliminated, but the officers most likely. As a grim confirmation, older people from Jablanica still remember the Italian corpses flowing down the river in large numbers.
Still, they were needed as strecher-bearers and drivers (see below), and Djilas (diaries again) remembers that there were still some 300 Italians with the surrounded partisans in Montenegro in June 1943-again the same form Prozor and Jablanica.
Vast quantities of equipment were lost-let's just quote the report of German major Strecker who has been exchanged after being captured in March 1943 during the closing phases of "Weiss":
"...I personaly saw 8 howitzers and 6 mountain guns in the Prozor-Jablanica sector. At Prozor and Rama they captured a large quantities of ammunition; at Rama supposedly 3 wagons of artilery and 2 waggons of rifle and mortar ammunition. They also have some 20 tanks, of which I saw 11 in Prozor-Jablanica sector. Drivers were partly Italians who volunteered to serve with the partisans...In the night of 9/10 March there were some 18 Italian vehicles,supposedly captured at Prozor and Rama moving along the Prozor-Rama-Jablanica road..." (Miso Lekovic, "Martovski pregovori 1943", p.127,reference to AVII, NAV-N-T-315,r.2271, s.1448-52; 1461-5)
Hope this helps,
Komdiv Koca
---------------
by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:15 am
Thanks Koca ,
The USSME book describes the episode as " incredibil " but the fact that they mention such a self deprecating episode gives some credence to it .
Also during Iugoslavia occupation morale of i was often low and sometimes
italians fought hard while in other instances gave up almost without a fight ,
I am triyng to check additional sources to see if possible to get a definitive
answer to this episode .
Thyanks again for yr help
Yours
GLADIVM
Again I have some doubt about the behaviour of another italian division serving in Balkans during WWII .
In this case the culprit is Infantry Division Murge defeated by partizans in the second half of february 1943 when partizans were trying to cross Neretva to escape Axis net .
Yugoslavs say that they defeated Murge in pitched battle and after that the division was well destroyed . The History Office of Italian Army say a different and quite strange story .
Third battalion of 259 Infantry Reg of Murge was garrisoning the town of Prozor and with partizans advancing towards it had not been put on alert and soldiers being market day went on leave unarmed in the city to enjoy a day off , partizans dressed as peasants or even in captured italian uniforms surprised the unaware soldiers and captured them without much fight .
In their help was sent Second battalion of 260 Infantry reg and this battalion was ambushed at Jablanizza , after fighting for a few days also this force had to surrender , despite promise of having their lives spared , promptly after surrender all officers were executed .
If Italian USSME is correct it means that most of Murge was not destroyed but only one third of its force ( which is a lot anyhow ) and that circumstances denote at least laxity in command .
I would be glad for any confirmation of Murge vicissitudes during Weiss
Thanks
Yours
GLADIVM
--------------
by Koca Popovic » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:18 pm
GLADIVM wrote:Again I have some doubt about the behaviour of another italian division serving in Balkans during WWII .
In this case the culprit is Infantry Division Murge defeated by partizans in the second half of february 1943 when partizans were trying to cross Neretva to escape Axis net .
Yugoslavs say that they defeated Murge in pitched battle and after that the division was well destroyed . The History Office of Italian Army say a different and quite strange story .
Third battalion of 259 Infantry Reg of Murge was garrisoning the town of Prozor and with partizans advancing towards it had not been put on alert and soldiers being market day went on leave unarmed in the city to enjoy a day off , partizans dressed as peasants or even in captured italian uniforms surprised the unaware soldiers and captured them without much fight .
In their help was sent Second battalion of 260 Infantry reg and this battalion was ambushed at Jablanizza , after fighting for a few days also this force had to surrender , despite promise of having their lives spared , promptly after surrender all officers were executed .
If Italian USSME is correct it means that most of Murge was not destroyed but only one third of its force ( which is a lot anyhow ) and that circumstances denote at least laxity in command .
I would be glad for any confirmation of Murge vicissitudes during Weiss
Thanks
Yours
GLADIVM
Mr. GLADIVM,
as the partisans were nearing Prozor, the operation "Weiss" was almost a month old. A month of heavy fighting in winter conditions, not only for the Wehrmacht and NDH troops, but also for the RE: Division "Sassari" lost 159 dead and 650 wounded until 22. February in fighting around Kulen Vakuf (Talpo, Dlamzia III, p.42-45). Being no doubt informed about these events, I find it extremly hard to believe that the commander of Murge, or of the VI Army corps failed to notify the garrison of the danger coming their way, or that the garrison commander (all the widespread stories of the inefficiency of the Italians notwithstanding) would have failed to sound the alarm. Apart from that the town itself was fortified since October 1942 (Operation "Dinara").
So, the commander of the town fortified for at least 4 months aware of the fact that the attack was imminent gives a day off to his complete battalion during a major operation only to be captured by a few infiltrated (how much of them could be actualy infiltrated given the town's size and garrison without raising any suspicion) partisans? Wouldn't say so.
Yugoslav version sounds much more plausible: first attack on February 17 failed due to insufficient preparation and strong resistance of a fortified enemy. Second attack, a day later, succeeds.
As for the casaulties: Prozor was garrisoned by a full batallion (641 men), and very few (if any) made their way out (Talpo, Dlmazia III, p.53-56).
Acording to the same source (p.57) Jablanica was lost on February 23 with it's whole garrison of more than 700.
Dedijer, albeit in his diary, claims IIRC (sorry, don't have it with me) that the Italians have lost some 1200 men dead and wounded and several hundred prisoners. I believe that these figures, quoted from "Feldgrau"
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15058&highlight=murge
at the bottom, are the official Yugoslav statistic.
At the beginning of "March negotiations" between Germans and partisans, partisans offered to exchange 600 Italian soldiers and 15 officers they had as prisoners (most of these came from Prozor and Jablanica). For the fascimile of the German memoranda on the matter see:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=78201&highlight=
first post, second scan.
As for the executions: Dedijer mentions "the whole 1/259" being put to death in Prozor, and bodies thrown into Neretva. I sincerely doubt that all the survivors were eliminated, but the officers most likely. As a grim confirmation, older people from Jablanica still remember the Italian corpses flowing down the river in large numbers.
Still, they were needed as strecher-bearers and drivers (see below), and Djilas (diaries again) remembers that there were still some 300 Italians with the surrounded partisans in Montenegro in June 1943-again the same form Prozor and Jablanica.
Vast quantities of equipment were lost-let's just quote the report of German major Strecker who has been exchanged after being captured in March 1943 during the closing phases of "Weiss":
"...I personaly saw 8 howitzers and 6 mountain guns in the Prozor-Jablanica sector. At Prozor and Rama they captured a large quantities of ammunition; at Rama supposedly 3 wagons of artilery and 2 waggons of rifle and mortar ammunition. They also have some 20 tanks, of which I saw 11 in Prozor-Jablanica sector. Drivers were partly Italians who volunteered to serve with the partisans...In the night of 9/10 March there were some 18 Italian vehicles,supposedly captured at Prozor and Rama moving along the Prozor-Rama-Jablanica road..." (Miso Lekovic, "Martovski pregovori 1943", p.127,reference to AVII, NAV-N-T-315,r.2271, s.1448-52; 1461-5)
Hope this helps,
Komdiv Koca
---------------
by GLADIVM » Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:15 am
Thanks Koca ,
The USSME book describes the episode as " incredibil " but the fact that they mention such a self deprecating episode gives some credence to it .
Also during Iugoslavia occupation morale of i was often low and sometimes
italians fought hard while in other instances gave up almost without a fight ,
I am triyng to check additional sources to see if possible to get a definitive
answer to this episode .
Thyanks again for yr help
Yours
GLADIVM