Posted 11 March 2005 - 11:38 PM by david
Did the 27th & 28th Fanteria Reggimento ever have 3 Battaglione, or was it only ever 2 each?
Supplementary question; did the Reggimento numbered above, have a Brigade name? Some seem to, and others not. Or maybe the lists are incomplete.
Thanks.
Posted 12 March 2005 - 09:24 AM by Lupo Solitario
it depends by period: the North Africa 1940 TO&E; was on 3 battalions, the 1942 TO&E; on 2.
About names...brigades had been cancelled in 1938. Regiments beared the the historical named they had in WWI. Divisions could bear the same name or keeping the name which had held between 1934 and 1938...Usually if it's a city name, the two names coincide.
Posted 12 March 2005 - 07:13 PM by Lupo Solitario
for better comprhension the cases where regiments had a name different by division were:
division "Superga": regiments 91st and 92nd "Basilicata"
"Sforzesca": 53rd and 54th "Umbria"
"Cosseria": 89th and 90th "Salerno"
"Pasubio": 79th and 80th "Roma"
"Piave": 57th and 58th "Abruzzi"
"Brennero": 231st and 232nd "Avellino"
"Isonzo": 23rd and 24th "Como"
"Assietta": 29th and 30th "Pisa"
"Sabauda": 45th and 46th "Reggio"
"Legnano": 67th and 68th "Palermo"
"Sabratha": 85th and 86th "Verona"
"Sirte": 69th and 70th "Ancona"
"Cirene": 157th and 158th "Liguria"
"Marmarica": 115th and 116th "Treviso"
"Trieste": 65th and 66th "Valtellina"
"Trento": 61st and 62nd "Sicilia"
In the case of Pavia, division and regiments had the same name
Posted 13 March 2005 - 12:46 AM by Franco
For toe AS 1942 the rgt was on 3 btls (except for motorized units, but Pavia easn't motorized) but actually most of rgts was only on 2 btls
Posted 13 March 2005 - 03:40 PM by Lupo Solitario
Yipes, you're right, my fault! Ashes on my head!
as a curiosity, the theorical North Africa Infantry Division TO&E; 1942 is really interesting:
HQ
2 infantry regiments, each on: HQ, mortar company, 3 infantry battalions
(infantry battalion on 4 companies each on fusilier platoon, MG platoon, ATR platoon, 47mm platoon)
1 artillery regiment: 1 88/56mm battalion, 2 100/17mm battalions 2 75/27mm battalions 2 20mm AA batteries
1 mixed engineer battalion
it would have been interesting if some division had really reached this strenght...
Posted 15 March 2005 - 07:47 AM by david
Lupo & Franco.
Thank you & sorry for the dalay in replying, I am having computer problems at home & am writing this reply from my sister's house 100Km away.
Lupo the list of Brigade names for the divisione was very useful.
I understand the theoretical T.O&E;, but in reality, did Pavia have 2 or 3 Battaglione in its Reggimento? And if so, when did it change? Please
Posted 18 March 2005 - 05:11 PM by david
Hello :?:
Also, Pistoia Divisione ? 2 Battaglione per Reggimento or 3. (I beleive 2)
Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:46 PM by Lupo Solitario
Also, Pistoia Divisione ? 2 Battaglione per Reggimento or 3. (I beleive 2)
IIRC the Pistoia had the North Africa motorized 1942 TO&E; which should mean 2 battalions for regiment...
(Note: David I'll make some research on it using Easter holidays but now I got no time....)
Posted 03 May 2005 - 12:09 PM by Lupo Solitario
Cuckoo!!!
I've finally found some new data on Pavia division...finding it's a chaos.
It seems that regiments 27th and 28th had been quite always on two battalions, but in 1941 there was a III/28th Support weapon battalion, while the 27th included an Aosta Lancers gruppo but without other indications.
Weaponry was...all, the regiments had 47mm companies, 37mm companies, etc.
I got data about division had included for a bit a bersaglieri element
Artillery is terrible: in 1941 the division had the 3rd Articelere Regiment; during Crusader, it had to receive 26th Field Artillery but it was still not arrived but 26th battalions were managed by 3rd Articelere...
a very funny reading
at dispo
Lupo
Posted 03 May 2005 - 12:32 PM by Abel Ravasz
J.Greene / A.Massigliani indicate that Pavia had 3 bns in each regiment, but two were detached to KG Hecker during the planned amphibious assault on Tobruk during early 42 (?). No further note on the fate of these units (as the amphibious assault was never made), but in the OoB for 23/10/42, they still have "III. bns detached to KG Hecker for assault on Tobruk". Mine is a Hungarian edition, so the quotes are not completely precise.
Hope this helps,
Abel
Posted 03 May 2005 - 01:48 PM by david
OK. I'm confused. :? (It's not difficult) :wink:
What I think is being said, is that Pavia (unlike most 1940 Divisione) only had 2 Battaglione/Reggimento.
That is, until 1941, when a support weapons Battaglione (or was it 2, 1 per Reggimento) joined the Divisione. Also, an Aosta Lancieri Gruppo joined 27th Reggimento at this time. (Details if available please).
The support weapons within the Battaglione appear to have all been ControCarro.
Also present at some time was a Bersaglieri element. (Details if available please).
Two Battaglione, (possibly the support weapons) were detatched throughout part of 1942. (Hecker)
The above represents my understanding of the 2 previous posts. If I have misinterperated anything, please point it out.
Thanks Lupo & Abel
Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:36 PM by Lupo Solitario
Full understood, David (my fault)
But it's confusing...it seems that Pavia was a costant take on & give away subunits...for example, I know it gave two battalions to rebuild the Sabratha in 1941-42.
I found an interesting source...a sort of unofficial unit history wrote in the '70s collecting data from veterans...a lot of data but you have to look for them all, so you have a description of the battalion rapid reaction group but there's no way to know how many AT guns a regiment had...and so on
at your dispo, anyway
Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:53 PM by Abel Ravasz
OK guys, I am no expert, but...
This one is from a most recent topic by Mr. Jack Greene on this very site about the OoB at "Crusader":
Emphasises are mine. David, perhaps You should ask Mr. Greene on this issue?
Abel
Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:24 PM by david
Lupo, not your fault at all. Thank you for helping me to understand.
Abel, your input is much appreciated.
Jack, if you are following this thread, or reading this post, your thoughts please. (If that doesn't work, I'll try a pm).
Thanks both.
Posted 24 July 2005 - 01:41 PM by david
Lupo, Abel.
Your thoughts on my previous comments please. I want to be sure that I am understanding you both correctly.
Posted 19 July 2007 - 05:38 PM by david
Never did get a reply from Lupo or Abel!
But have spoken by e-mail to Jack. Some while ago actually, and he said that the 3 Battaglione structure for Pavia was purely threoretical in accordance with AS42. But as to wether it ever took place or not, he had no idea. (Really nice guy BTW).
Posted 28 July 2007 - 04:06 PM by Oasis
Some more notices about Pavia 17^ division:
March 1941:
27. and 28. Rgt ftr each 2 btns bersaglieri (1+1 motorized)
Co mortai 81mm, Co Cannoni Fant. 65/17
26. Rgt art. "Rubicone" (on two Groups, the Command still in Italy)
3. Rgt Articelere (2 groups plus three btrs a.a.) in place of 2. Rgt art. Pesante Campale
2. Rgt Articelere (3 groups plus two btrs a.a.)
Grp II/24 of CA and Grp XLII a.a.
May '41
one btn disbanded and turned into Frontier Guards
Sept.'41
on the front line nr. 6 btns
Nov. '41
27. and 28. Rgt with two btns each
26. Regt art. (one Group and two btrs a.a.)
5. btn Carri Leggeri
6. btn Autoblinde "Lancieri Aosta"
Dec. '41
With Pavia is present one "Battaglione di Formazione"
Jan. '42
Pavia is re-ordered as Inf. Division type A.S.42 on two regts (two btns each)
If of interest I can provide with sources.
Oasis
Did the 27th & 28th Fanteria Reggimento ever have 3 Battaglione, or was it only ever 2 each?
Supplementary question; did the Reggimento numbered above, have a Brigade name? Some seem to, and others not. Or maybe the lists are incomplete.
Thanks.
Posted 12 March 2005 - 09:24 AM by Lupo Solitario
it depends by period: the North Africa 1940 TO&E; was on 3 battalions, the 1942 TO&E; on 2.
About names...brigades had been cancelled in 1938. Regiments beared the the historical named they had in WWI. Divisions could bear the same name or keeping the name which had held between 1934 and 1938...Usually if it's a city name, the two names coincide.
Posted 12 March 2005 - 07:13 PM by Lupo Solitario
for better comprhension the cases where regiments had a name different by division were:
division "Superga": regiments 91st and 92nd "Basilicata"
"Sforzesca": 53rd and 54th "Umbria"
"Cosseria": 89th and 90th "Salerno"
"Pasubio": 79th and 80th "Roma"
"Piave": 57th and 58th "Abruzzi"
"Brennero": 231st and 232nd "Avellino"
"Isonzo": 23rd and 24th "Como"
"Assietta": 29th and 30th "Pisa"
"Sabauda": 45th and 46th "Reggio"
"Legnano": 67th and 68th "Palermo"
"Sabratha": 85th and 86th "Verona"
"Sirte": 69th and 70th "Ancona"
"Cirene": 157th and 158th "Liguria"
"Marmarica": 115th and 116th "Treviso"
"Trieste": 65th and 66th "Valtellina"
"Trento": 61st and 62nd "Sicilia"
In the case of Pavia, division and regiments had the same name
Posted 13 March 2005 - 12:46 AM by Franco
For toe AS 1942 the rgt was on 3 btls (except for motorized units, but Pavia easn't motorized) but actually most of rgts was only on 2 btls
Posted 13 March 2005 - 03:40 PM by Lupo Solitario
Yipes, you're right, my fault! Ashes on my head!
as a curiosity, the theorical North Africa Infantry Division TO&E; 1942 is really interesting:
HQ
2 infantry regiments, each on: HQ, mortar company, 3 infantry battalions
(infantry battalion on 4 companies each on fusilier platoon, MG platoon, ATR platoon, 47mm platoon)
1 artillery regiment: 1 88/56mm battalion, 2 100/17mm battalions 2 75/27mm battalions 2 20mm AA batteries
1 mixed engineer battalion
it would have been interesting if some division had really reached this strenght...
Posted 15 March 2005 - 07:47 AM by david
Lupo & Franco.
Thank you & sorry for the dalay in replying, I am having computer problems at home & am writing this reply from my sister's house 100Km away.
Lupo the list of Brigade names for the divisione was very useful.
I understand the theoretical T.O&E;, but in reality, did Pavia have 2 or 3 Battaglione in its Reggimento? And if so, when did it change? Please
Posted 18 March 2005 - 05:11 PM by david
Hello :?:
Also, Pistoia Divisione ? 2 Battaglione per Reggimento or 3. (I beleive 2)
Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:46 PM by Lupo Solitario
Also, Pistoia Divisione ? 2 Battaglione per Reggimento or 3. (I beleive 2)
IIRC the Pistoia had the North Africa motorized 1942 TO&E; which should mean 2 battalions for regiment...
(Note: David I'll make some research on it using Easter holidays but now I got no time....)
Posted 03 May 2005 - 12:09 PM by Lupo Solitario
Cuckoo!!!
I've finally found some new data on Pavia division...finding it's a chaos.
It seems that regiments 27th and 28th had been quite always on two battalions, but in 1941 there was a III/28th Support weapon battalion, while the 27th included an Aosta Lancers gruppo but without other indications.
Weaponry was...all, the regiments had 47mm companies, 37mm companies, etc.
I got data about division had included for a bit a bersaglieri element
Artillery is terrible: in 1941 the division had the 3rd Articelere Regiment; during Crusader, it had to receive 26th Field Artillery but it was still not arrived but 26th battalions were managed by 3rd Articelere...
a very funny reading
at dispo
Lupo
Posted 03 May 2005 - 12:32 PM by Abel Ravasz
J.Greene / A.Massigliani indicate that Pavia had 3 bns in each regiment, but two were detached to KG Hecker during the planned amphibious assault on Tobruk during early 42 (?). No further note on the fate of these units (as the amphibious assault was never made), but in the OoB for 23/10/42, they still have "III. bns detached to KG Hecker for assault on Tobruk". Mine is a Hungarian edition, so the quotes are not completely precise.
Hope this helps,
Abel
Posted 03 May 2005 - 01:48 PM by david
OK. I'm confused. :? (It's not difficult) :wink:
What I think is being said, is that Pavia (unlike most 1940 Divisione) only had 2 Battaglione/Reggimento.
That is, until 1941, when a support weapons Battaglione (or was it 2, 1 per Reggimento) joined the Divisione. Also, an Aosta Lancieri Gruppo joined 27th Reggimento at this time. (Details if available please).
The support weapons within the Battaglione appear to have all been ControCarro.
Also present at some time was a Bersaglieri element. (Details if available please).
Two Battaglione, (possibly the support weapons) were detatched throughout part of 1942. (Hecker)
The above represents my understanding of the 2 previous posts. If I have misinterperated anything, please point it out.
Thanks Lupo & Abel
Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:36 PM by Lupo Solitario
Full understood, David (my fault)
But it's confusing...it seems that Pavia was a costant take on & give away subunits...for example, I know it gave two battalions to rebuild the Sabratha in 1941-42.
I found an interesting source...a sort of unofficial unit history wrote in the '70s collecting data from veterans...a lot of data but you have to look for them all, so you have a description of the battalion rapid reaction group but there's no way to know how many AT guns a regiment had...and so on
at your dispo, anyway
Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:53 PM by Abel Ravasz
OK guys, I am no expert, but...
This one is from a most recent topic by Mr. Jack Greene on this very site about the OoB at "Crusader":
Emphasises are mine. David, perhaps You should ask Mr. Greene on this issue?
Abel
Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:24 PM by david
Lupo, not your fault at all. Thank you for helping me to understand.
Abel, your input is much appreciated.
Jack, if you are following this thread, or reading this post, your thoughts please. (If that doesn't work, I'll try a pm).
Thanks both.
Posted 24 July 2005 - 01:41 PM by david
Lupo, Abel.
Your thoughts on my previous comments please. I want to be sure that I am understanding you both correctly.
Posted 19 July 2007 - 05:38 PM by david
Never did get a reply from Lupo or Abel!
But have spoken by e-mail to Jack. Some while ago actually, and he said that the 3 Battaglione structure for Pavia was purely threoretical in accordance with AS42. But as to wether it ever took place or not, he had no idea. (Really nice guy BTW).
Posted 28 July 2007 - 04:06 PM by Oasis
Some more notices about Pavia 17^ division:
March 1941:
27. and 28. Rgt ftr each 2 btns bersaglieri (1+1 motorized)
Co mortai 81mm, Co Cannoni Fant. 65/17
26. Rgt art. "Rubicone" (on two Groups, the Command still in Italy)
3. Rgt Articelere (2 groups plus three btrs a.a.) in place of 2. Rgt art. Pesante Campale
2. Rgt Articelere (3 groups plus two btrs a.a.)
Grp II/24 of CA and Grp XLII a.a.
May '41
one btn disbanded and turned into Frontier Guards
Sept.'41
on the front line nr. 6 btns
Nov. '41
27. and 28. Rgt with two btns each
26. Regt art. (one Group and two btrs a.a.)
5. btn Carri Leggeri
6. btn Autoblinde "Lancieri Aosta"
Dec. '41
With Pavia is present one "Battaglione di Formazione"
Jan. '42
Pavia is re-ordered as Inf. Division type A.S.42 on two regts (two btns each)
If of interest I can provide with sources.
Oasis
