Guastatori di Fanteria

[jwsleser]

Posted 27 August 2011 - 05:12 PM by arturolorioli

Did the Infantry "Guastatori" used the same TO&E of their Engineers equivalents? In case they didn't (as I'm rather sure), does any good sould have a detailed TO&E for the Infantry "Guastatori" battalions? I do have a good TO&E for the Engineers variant, but never been able to find any primary source about the Infantry one.

Thanks in advance

Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:04 PM by Dili

I have 3 companies for Guastatori Para (support weapons: 6x81mm 4xHMG 6xATrifle) and del Genio(unknown details). For Fanteria Guastatori i have 4 companies(4 plt each - each plat w/ 2xBrixia, 2xHMG?LMG, 2 Flame throwers) for Guastatori Fanteria for C3.

Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:37 PM by david

Dili.

How many men do you have in each, in total?

Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:57 AM by madmike

There is a lot of difference between engineers (Genieri, Artieri) and assaul pionieers (guastatori) TO&E.

In 1940 the speciality, nominated 'zappatori d'assalto', was created for assaulting the fixed fortifications the Regio Esercito can found on the battleground.

The normal unit of employing will be the platoon, with 2 destruction squad with explosive charges and flamethrowers, and two support squads with FM and 45 mm mortar.

Each platoon will be put in 'compagnie di corpo d'armata', 4 plt, and battaglioni d'armata , 2 companies.

Ref. foglio 1420 6.7.40, Zappatori d'assalto, SMRE.

The first 4 companies were created 3 -10-1940, destinated to 2nd and 8th Army.

TO%E was command plt, 4 guastatori plt, 6 Off, 18 Nco, 173 troops, 6 light trucks 1 motorcycle, 8 FM, 8 mortar 45mm, 8 flame launchers, 108 moschetti 38, 83 pistols, 11 signal pistols, 24 wire cutters.

In 1941 the TO&S and tacticts change, and the new 'minimal' organic unit for the Guastatori was the squad, with 18 men with gruppo distruzione (11 men with explosives bangalore tubes and other explosives, with 1 commander, 4 portatubi, 4 portacariche (men who transport and put the bangalore and explosives behind the fortifications, barbed wire, and so on) and two flammieri, men with flame launchers).
The other group was a 'gruppo di sostegno' of 7 men, with FM Breda 30 and mortars 45mm.

Company still remains on comandante, Command plt on commander, command squad, signal squad) and 4 guastatori plt.

Later in 1942 TO&E change again: The Battaglione Guastatori has, now, a squad with magnetic mine searchers and walkways at compagnia comando level, 4 compagnie guastatori, and a compagnia armi di accompagnamento.

The battaglione with new to&e was (28.3.1942, foglio 3390):

- PLT WITH COMMAND, 2 GRUPPI DISTRUZIONE (WITH EXPLOSIVE CHARGES, FLAME THROWERS, FOG MATERIALS), 1 GRUPPO SOSTEGNO WITH A SQUAD WITH 3 45MM MORTARS, 2 FM BREDA, EXPLOSIVS
- materials of Battaglione that were 1 auto, 4 heavy trucks, 34 light trucks, 11 motorcycles, 4 bicycles, 128 Mab 9mm, 32 FM, 48 45 mm mortars, 64 flame launchers, 4 81mm mortars, 4 47\32 cannons, 4 assault walkways, 12 2 metres assault stairs.

Obviously these were typical assault units: all the 'normal' enginer work, is work for the normal 'artieri' units (mining, demining, earth works, and so on).

Glad to have some informations about the TO&E of artieri and engineer units.

Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:27 AM by arturolorioli

I have 3 companies for Guastatori Para (support weapons: 6x81mm 4xHMG 6xATrifle) and del Genio(unknown details). For Fanteria Guastatori i have 4 companies(4 plt each - each plat w/ 2xBrixia, 2xHMG/LMG, 2 Flame throwers) for Guastatori Fanteria for C3.

Dear Dili,
thanks a lot, that match exactly the scanty data I have found. Do you have any real detailed TO&E? (i.e. how many man per section, their role, armament, plus the HQ and support elements, etc etc?) That's what I'm looking for, but never have been able to trace one! There is a lot of data about the Engineers Guastatori, but little if any about their Infantry cousins!

Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:33 AM by arturolorioli

There is a lot of difference between engineers (Genieri, Artieri) and assaul pionieers (guastatori) TO&E.
In 1940 the speciality, nominated 'zappatori d'assalto', was created for assaulting the fixed fortifications the Regio Esercito can found on the battleground.

Dear Mike,
thanks for your reply, but there is a misunderstanding. I'm not looking for info about the Engineers Guastatori (like the ones you posted, that I guess come from the nice article on the italian flamethrowers published on Storia Militare magazine). I'm looking for info about the "Infantry" Guastatory bns, that are an entirely different matter (and I suspect could have had a different TO&E too).

Thanks anyway.

Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:53 AM by madmike

I think we are talking about the same thing. There are not 'infantry' guastatori, or you are talking about the VIII, CLXXXV of the Nembo, the II and XV btg in the Armir, the V af Sassari, the CCV of the Centauro II....

They were all trained at Civitavecchia and Ronchi dei Legionari, Simply, after 1941, the 'tabelle organiche' and the school passes under the infantry (the foglio 3390 of 28 marzo 1942, ordinamento e addestramento dei guastatori di fanteria, is from Ispettorato arma di fanteria)

In the article of Storia Militare signed before, at pag 8 we can read: gli organici dei reparti operativi rimasero sostanzialmente immutati fino al 1943.

So, they seems to be the same for engineer and infantry units.

I found the TO&E of the battaglione guastatori di fanteria in January 1941 (so, it will be the same for engineers):

1 auto, 27 light trucks, 6 motorcycles, 4 bicycles, 32 FM, 32 Brixia 45, 457 musket 38, 335 pistols, 32 flamethrowers, 56 signal pistol, 96 wirecutters

Perhaps the only variations about the training will be the elimination, from infantry courses, of the tactics 'di arresto', that means only an assault training.

Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:09 AM by arturolorioli

There are not 'infantry' guastatori....

Dear Mike ... I think we do have a conflicting sources problem here. There were Engineers Guastatori (including Alpini Engineers Guastatori) and Infantry Guastatori (including Parachutists Guastatori). They were different organizations, even with different collar patches.

They were all trained at Civitavecchia and Ronchi dei Legionari....

The Guastatori school at Campo dell'Oro (near Civitavecchia) trained the first two Engineers Guastatori courses, then it was handed to the infantry that extablished there their Guastatori di Fanteria school. The Engineers Guastatori School was moved to Banne (near Ronchi dei Legionari) at the depot of the 5th Engineers Rgt. There never was any common training in the same location, the Infantry and the Engineers variants of the Guastatori were entirely separate entities.

I found the TO&E of the battaglione guastatori di fanteria in January 1941 (so, it will be the same for engineers):....

Could be, but I do have some doubts. For sure the number of companies were not the same (3 for the Engineers and 4 for the Infantry), and the sparse references I have found seems to point out to different low-level organization too (platoons and squads - but the data I have are too fragmentary to be sure). Anyway, could you please be so kind to indicate the source and date of this Infantry Guastatori TO&E? Thanks in advance.

Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:44 AM by david

Can I ask a specific question here please?

How many men were in each of the 22nd, 23rd & 24th Compagnia Paracadutisti Guastatori of the VIII Battaglione Paracadutisti Guastatori Folgore?
And do you all agree with the Tabelle Organiche of 10x Machine pistols, 3x Lt M/gs, 9x Brixia, 2x Solothurn in each Compagnia, and a HQ of 4x 8mm M/gs & 9x 81mm Mortars.

Posted 28 August 2011 - 05:38 PM by madmike

Arturo, for the infantry-engineer troble, i sent you a mail.

Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:44 AM by david

Glad to have some informations about the TO&E of artieri and engineer units.

As far as I know these were not combat units, and so they had no heavy weapons, just pistols & rifles.

But I'm happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable.

Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:51 AM by david

As there has been no reply to my query regarding VIII Battaglione Paracadutisti Guastatori Folgore. I will ask about the other two Guastatori units in North Africa, the XXXI Battaglione Guastatori del Genio. & the XXXII Battaglione Guastatori del Genio.

The former seems to have had 4x Compagnia 10 Artieri, 14 Arreste, 15 Collagamenti & 31 Signali.
I would like to know how many men in each, and a Tabelle Organiche.

The latter appears to have just 2x Compagnia 3 (Folgore) & 4 (Uragano). But that's all I know, so ANY more information would be gratefully received.

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 29 August 2011 - 10:28 AM by arturolorioli

As far as I know these were not combat units, and so they had no heavy weapons, just pistols & rifles.

But I'm happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable.

I'm most probably not most knowledgeable, but yes, AFAIK they had no heavy weapons.

Posted 29 August 2011 - 11:08 AM by arturolorioli

XXXI Battaglione Guastatori del Genio ... seems to have had 4x Compagnia 10 Artieri, 14 Arreste, 15 Collagamenti & 31 Signali

If the number you quote are the company numbers, AFAIK they are wrong. The XXXI had the following companies (all of the Guastatori) : 1st "Giaguaro", 2nd "Lupo", 7th "Tigre" and 8th "Leone" (i.e. all the four companies trained in the 1st Guastatori Course). The 2nd coy was merged into the 1st on late 1941-early1942 due to combat losses.

.. .the XXXII Battaglione Guastatori del Genio.... just 2x Compagnia 3 (Folgore) & 4 (Uragano).

Correct.

Here is a short summary of the Engineers Guastatori units :

The first two courses were held at the Campo dell'Oro Guastatory School. The 1st course did produce the 1st "Giaguaro" , 2nd "Lupo", 7th "Tigre" and 8th "Leone" coys. The 2nd course did train the 3rd "Folgore", 4th "Uragano", 5th "Tormenta" (later renumbered 6th), 6th "Teste Dure" (later renumbered 5th) and 9th "Valanga" (Alpini Engineers).

The 1st, 2nd, 7th and 8th coys were sent to Yugoslavia, the 3rd and 4th to North Africa, the 5th, 6th and 9th to Albania, all as independent units.

The first to be grouped into a Battalion were the ones in Albania (XXX bn, March 1941), followed by the ones in Yugoslavia (XXXI bn, April 1941). The two coys in North Africa had been administratively grouped in a Provisional Battalion (Battaglione di Formazione) since January 1941, but it was all "on paper" only and they operated as fully independent units until August 1941, when they formed the XXXII bn (but they continued to operate mostly independently).

The 5th coy was detached from the XXX Bn in March 1942, and attached to the 125th Air-Transportable Infantry Division "La Spezia".

The 3rd course (held at Banne at the training company of the 5th Engineers Rgt depot, as the Campo dell'Oro school had been took over by the Infantry Engineers School) provided replacements for the other companies and activated the 30th company la 30ª Alpini Guastatori coy, intended as a replacements units for the XXX bn. When the XXX bn was wiped out in Russia with the ARMIR, the 30th company did took part to a few anti-partisans sweeps on the italian Nort-Eastern border and was then disbanded, the personnel assigned to fill out the companies activated with the 4th course.

The 4th course (again held at Banne) did activate the 10th "Santa Barbara" company (that ended up as a garrison unit in Elba island and later on the Tuscany mainland), the 11th company (un-named, designated for the XXXI bn, but I've never been able to understand if it was intended as an extra company or as a "march company" to convoy replacements, that was stranded in Sicily while in transit to Tunisia and disappeared during Husky) and the 30th/bis Alpini coy (that saw a limited anti-partisan use before being renamed as the 1st "Giaguaro" coy of the reactivated XXXI Alpini Engineers Guastatori Bn)

The 5th course was scheduled to start on September or October 1943 (but I have no documental confirmation of that) to train the other 1000+ recruits and veterans already assigned to the "new" XXXI bn, but of course the Armistice prevent the activation of the course.

That - again - it's about the *engineers* Guastatori bns (so a bit off-topic here), and as usual AFAIK

Aighe-va

Arturo Filippo Lorioli

Posted 29 August 2011 - 11:17 AM by arturolorioli

Thank you for correcting my bad information. I will amend my records now.

I wonder if those Compagnia I listed belonged to a different XXXI or 31st Engineer unit?????

Do you have a Tabelle Organiche for the "real" Compagnia?

Posted 29 August 2011 - 12:18 PM by arturolorioli

If for "real" you mean the engineers guastatori, yes I do, but I do not have them at hand now. Will return home probably early next week and will let you know.

For the infantry guastatori, not I don't, that's why I started the thread!

Aighe-va

Arturo Filippo Lorioli

Posted 29 August 2011 - 01:40 PM by david

Thank you yes, I would appreciate that when you get home. And to confirm the "real" Compagnia are.....

The XXXI had the following companies (all of the Guastatori) : 1st "Giaguaro", 2nd "Lupo", 7th "Tigre" and 8th "Leone" (i.e. all the four companies trained in the 1st Guastatori Course)

Posted 02 September 2011 - 09:41 PM by arturolorioli

As promised :

Italian Engineers Guastatori Battalion, 1941

Battalion HQ, with :
Command :
1 x Major or Lt.Colonel (Commander)
1 x Captain or Major (1st Battalion Adjutant)
1 x Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant (2nd Battalion Adjutant)
1 x Medical Captain

1 x HQ squad, with :
2 x NCOs
16 x other ranks
2 x Light Trucks
1 x car
1 x motocycle
1 x bicycle
(Note : HQ squad personnel weren't Guastatori : drivers, runners, etc)

**********************
2, 3 or 4 Guastatori Companies, each with :

Command :
1 x Captain or Lieutenant (commander)

1 x HQ Platoon, with :
1 x Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant (Company Adiutant)

1 x HQ Squad (not Guastatori personnel), with :
1 x Administration NCO
1 x Administration corporal
1 x Maps sketcher
5 x cooks and service personnel
2 x trumpeters
1 x Medical NCO
6 x Stretcher-bearers
2 x Orderlies
4 x drivers/mechanics
2 x Light Trucks

1 x Signal and Supply Squad (not Guastatori personnel), with :
1 x NCO
3 x Signalmen
10 x Supplies carriers
2 x runners

****************
4 x Guastatori platoons, each with :
1 x Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant (Commander)
1 x Orderly
1 x Light Truck

2 x Guastatori Squads, each with :

1 x Destruction Group, with :
1 x NCO (Squad and Group Commander)
1 x Corporal (Bangalores carrier)
3 x Bangalores carriers
4 x Explosives charges carriers
2 x Flamethrower operators

1 x Support Group, with :
1 x NCO or senior corporal
1 x LMG team, with:
1 x Corporal team leader
2 x LMG crewmen
1 x Assault Mortar team, with:
1 x Corporal team leader
2 x Assault Mortar crewman

***********

As you can size by the size and composition of their HQ element, the companies were for all pratical purposes fully independent units, and were mostly used as such.

Total manpower allocation per company:
6 Officers
19 NCOs
136 Guastatori other ranks
37 non-Guastatori other ranks

Total weapons allocations per company (platoons only) :
8 x Breda 30 LMGs
8 x 45mm Brixia Assault Mortars
8 x Flamethrowers
27 x Very flares pistols
83 x pistols
108 x rifles and SMGs
35 x spades
56 x mattocks
24 x wire-cutters

Aighe-va

Arturo Filippo Lorioli

Posted 02 September 2011 - 11:02 PM by david

Thank you very much.

Posted 02 September 2011 - 11:29 PM by david

Did we ever establish the total number of men in a Battaglione Guastatori Paracadutisti

Posted 03 September 2011 - 05:04 PM by david

Not, we didn't. I have much more scanty informations about Infantry Guastatori (including the Paracadutisti). That's why I started the thread!

Posted 05 September 2011 - 07:58 AM by guests

The XXXI Battaglione Guastatori di Africa was originally an Alpini unit? If so, would it have been the only Alpini formation in North Africa?

I know their role was to support Pavia in breaching the Tobruk defenses. What actions were they involved in during and after CRUSADER?

Many thanks!

All the best

Andreas

Posted 05 September 2011 - 08:06 AM by arturolorioli

The XXXI Battaglione Guastatori di Africa was originally an Alpini unit?

Not, it wasn't.

I know their role was to support Pavia in breaching the Tobruk defenses. What actions were they involved in during and after CRUSADER?

They role was to support any breaching operation, not necessarily only the "Pavia" division. You can find a summary of their wartime activity on http://www.guastatori.it/?page_id=123 (it's in Italian, but nothing that can't be overcome with Google Translation

- If you would need for translation of some specific garbled point, just let me know).

Posted 05 September 2011 - 08:57 AM by guests

Not, it wasn't.

They role was to support any breaching operation, not necessarily only the "Pavia" division. You can find a summary of their wartime activity on http://www.guastatori.it/?page_id=123 (it's in Italian, but nothing that can't be overcome with Google Translation

- If you would need for translation of some specific garbled point, just let me know).
Thanks Arturo. I hope my Italian is sufficient to understand it.

Grazie!

Andreas

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:05 AM by arturolorioli

Just cut the text from the article and past it into http://translate.google.com , than choose the language you like. Or Google Toolbars have a direct "translate" function in it.

This sort of automatic translations usually looks funny (if not downright ridicolus!) but are usually more than enough if you know what the article talks about and you do know the main technical terms. I use it regularly with languages that I dosen't read (unfortunately all, except Italian, English, French and Spanish!!!!) and it works fine. The trick is usually to translate from the original language directly to english, the results are usually much better than a translation to other languages.

But of course if you hit any really garbled part (it happens!) do not hesitate to contact me and of course I'll be delighted to help as much as I can.

Ciao Arturo

Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:35 AM by guests

Ho gia leggo il articolo. E molto interessante. Ho anche richiesto all webmaster per la permissione di fare una traduzione in inglese.

Cordiali saluti

Andreas

Posted 05 September 2011 - 05:45 PM by arturolrioli

I'm very glad you found the article interesting, and I am sure that the www.Guastatori.it staf will much appreciate if you will provide them with an english translation.

Posted 13 March 2017 - 07:31 PM by Dili

There is a V Battaglione guastatori di fanteria in V Corpo in Yugoslav invasion, anyone can tell me more about the unit, when was formed, TOE?

Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:43 AM by diciasette2000

In 1940-1941 no battalions unit of "genio guastatori" was raised. The TOE SME october 1940 of "compagnia guastatori" was this:
-Comando
-plotone guastatori (x4)
--plotone comando
--plotone guastatori (x4)
---gruppo distruzione (x2)(flamethrower)
---gruppo sostegno (x2) (1xBreda 30mm and 1xBrixia 45mm)

The only "compagnie guastatori" that went on Albania front were 5.a,6.a and 9.a . They were regrouped in a Raggruppamento Speciale Guastatori and so fought in Greece, Albania and also on Jugoslavian front......phreaps they went in a provvisional battalion on 5.o Corpo d'armata front???????? but no battalion were raised in this "specialità del genio" for the Greece-Jugoslavian front.
All the best
maurizio

Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:33 PM by Dili

They are not said to be Genio but Fanteria. The order of battle was posted in Ramius site which seems to be dead. But i saved the webpage so i can copy it:

V CORPO D'ARMATA (gen. Balocco)

15^ Divisione Fanteria "Bergamo" (gen. Belletti)
25° reggimento fanteria
26° reggimento fanteria
89^ legione camicie nere
LXXXIX battaglione camicie nere d'assalto
XCVII battaglione camicie nere d'assalto
97^ compagnia camicie nere mitraglieri
XV battaglione mortai
15^ compagnia cannoni controcarro
4° reggimento artiglieria divisionale
36^ compagnia genio artieri
15^ compagnia genio telegrafisti e radiotelegrafisti
servizi divisionali

57^ Divisione Fanteria "Lombardia" (gen. Zatti)
73° reggimento fanteria
74° reggimento fanteria
137^ legione camicie nere
CXXXIV battaglione camicie nere d'assalto
CXXXVII battaglione camicie nere d'assalto
134^ compagnia camicie nere mitraglieri
LVII battaglione mortai
57^ compagnia cannoni controcarro
57° reggimento artiglieria divisionale
37^ compagnia genio artieri
57^ compagnia genio telegrafisti e radiotelegrafisti
servizi divisionali

5° Comando Guardia alla Frontiera (gen. Torriano)
XXV settore di copertura "Timavo"
LVIII battaglione camicie nere da montagna
XXVI settore di copertura "Carnaro"
LIV battaglione camicie nere da montagna
CXV battaglione mitraglieri da posizione
5 compagnie mitraglieri da posizione
10° raggruppamento artiglieria guardia alla frontiera
LIII gruppo artiglieria guardia alla frontiera
LXIX gruppo artiglieria guardia alla frontiera
LXVII gruppo artiglieria guardia alla frontiera
LXXXII gruppo artiglieria guardia alla frontiera

Truppe di Corpo d'Armata
V battaglione mitraglieri di corpo d'armata
VII battaglione mitraglieri di corpo d'armata
CV battaglione mitraglieri di corpo d'armata motorizzato
CVII battaglione mitraglieri di corpo d'armata motorizzato

V battaglione guastatori di fanteria

5° raggruppamento artiglieria di corpo d'armata
2 gruppi cannoni pesanti campali
2 gruppi obici pesanti campali
65^ batteria controaerea
67^ batteria controaerea
10° raggruppamento artiglieria d'armata
4 gruppi cannoni pesanti
3 gruppi obici pesanti
XXI gruppo controaerei
XXI gruppo artiglieria controaerei

5° raggruppamento genio di corpo d'armata
III battaglione genio artieri
74^ compagnia genio telegrafisti
80^ compagnia genio telegrafisti
99^ compagnia genio radiotelegrafisti
81^ compagnia genio fotoelettricisti
5^ compagnia chimica
servizi di corpo d'armata

 

[jwsleser]

At 2ºArmata level

3° raggruppamento genio d'armata
I battaglione genio pontieri
IX battaglione genio pontieri
XX battaglione genio pontieri
IV battaglione genio teleferisti

1^ compagnia genio guastatori

2^ compagnia genio guastatori

7^ compagnia genio guastatori

8^ compagnia genio guastatori

2^ compagnia genio idrici

2^ compagnia genio antincendi

III battaglione genio telegrafisti

III battaglione genio radiotelegrafisti

Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:37 PM by Dili

Also here

-It is listed as 5 Assault Battalion.

http://www.niehorste...y/corps_05.html

-Here are the 4 companies genio guastatori.

Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:15 PM by diciassette200

Dili on 5/4/1941 day of first shot on Jugoslavian front the guastatori units in Regio Esercito were:
-1ª Compagnia guastatori "Giaguaro"
-2ª Compagnia guastatori "Lupo"
-7ª Compagnia guastatori "Tigre"
-8ª Compagnia guastatori "Leone"
-In AS
--1º Raggruppamento speciale genio
---Battaglione guastatori di Formazione
----3ª Compagnia guastatori "Folgore"
----4ª Compagnia guastatori "Uragano"
-In Verona
--Deposito 4º Reggimento genio
--In Greece-Albania
---5ª Compagnia guastatori "Tormenta"
---6ª Compagnia guastatori (sardi) "Teste Dure"
---9ª Compagnia guastatori Alpini "Valanga"
In Italy
-VIII Battaglione guastatori paracadutisti
--22ª Compagnia guastatori paracadutisti
--23ª Compagnia guastatori paracadutisti
--24ª Compagnia guastatori paracadutisti

In effect at this time of war it's not clear if the "specialità guastatori" was a part of fanteria or genio of Regio Esercito but it's almost clear that in Greece-Albania phreaps jugoslavia were only 5.a,6.a and 9.a compagnia....It's also possible that the 1.a,2.a , 7.a and 8.a compagnia were "on disponibility" of the 2.a armata that fought Jugoslavian campaign on "Fronte Giulio"....
All the best
maurizio


Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:44 PM by Dili

Thanks.
So what is that V Battalion in V Corps? Do you have any information on it?

Posted 15 March 2017 - 08:21 AM by diciassette2000

In effect also in SME history of jugoslavian campaign it's writhe the presence of this unit but I think that was a typo or the "nickname" of a provvisional battalion make with the guastatori coys mobilized at this time......
All the best
maurizio

Posted 16 March 2017 - 04:31 PM by Dili

I guess it is possible but that mean a repetition in SME order of battle. Thanks Maurizio.