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Heavy Weapons in the Italian Battallions 10th June 1940

FrancoFB

FrancoFB

Member
from the old forum, weapons as ToE not actual, i post as it was in the old, corrections will add later. this was posted Sunday 28th December, 2003 7:59 am, last edited Sunday 15th June, 2008 5:04 am

Are you agree with my informations on italians battalions at 10/6/40?

Rifle btl: 3 rifle coy: each on 3 plat: each on 2 squad of 18 + 1 coy weapon (2 plat: each on 3 squads: each on 14 men and 3 45mm mortar and 2 plat mgs each on 2 squads (18 men and 2 mmg)
36 lmg, 8 mmg, 18 45mm mortars

CCNN btl (for infantry divisions): 2 coy of 3 plat of 2 squad of 18 men and 1 45mm mortars plat (with 3 squads, same of rifle) (in HQ coy)
24 lmg, 9 45mm mortars

Mortars btl: 3 coy of 3 plat of 2 squad (10 men and 1 mortar)
18 81mm mortars
for Autotrasportabile divisions 27 81mm mortars (plat of 3 squads)

Alpini btl: 3 coy each: 3 plat on 3 squad each on 13 men and 1 plat on 3 squad each on 11 men with 1 mmg and 1 45mm mortars squad + 1 81mm plat (in HQ coy)
27 lmg, 9 mg, 9 45mm mortars, 4 81mm mortars

Mg btl: 4 coy of 3 plat of 2 squad each on 18 men with 2 mmg
48 mg

Motorized mg btl: idk the structure (3x12 or 4x9)
36 mg

Bersaglieri autoportati btl: 2 coy: each on 3 plat of 3 squad and 1 mg plat of 3 squad
18 lmg, 6 mg

Bersaglieri motociclisti btl: 3 coy: each on 3 plat of 4 squad of 7 men and 1 mg plat of 4 squad
36 lmg, 12 mg

Bersaglieri ciclisti btl: 3 coy *3*3 each on 15 men + 1 mg coy *3*3
27 lmg, 9 mg

Infantry autoportata btl: 2 coy *3*2 and 1 45mm mortars plat (3 squads same of rifle) (in HQ coy)
24 lmg, 9 45mm mortars

Cavalry Gruppo squadroni (mounted): 2 sqdr *3*3 of 12 men
18 lmg

CCNN btl (for CCNN divisions): 3 coy*3*3 and 1 45mm mortars squad (in coy HQ) + 1 mg coy *3*2
27 lmg, 12 mg, 9 45mm mortars

CCNN btl in AOI: 3 coy idk the structure
18 lmg, 6 mg

Libyan btl: 3 coy*3*2 + 1 mg coy *3*3
36 lmg, 9 mg

Nazionale in AOI btl: 3 coy*3*3 and 1 45 mm mortars squad (in coy HQ)
+ 1 mg coy*3*3
27 lmg, 9 mg. 9 45mm mortars

Coloniale in AOI btl: 3 coy*2 half coy*3plat + 1 mg coy*3*3
18 lmg, 9 mg

Tanks L3 btl: 3 coy*3plat
46 L3

Tanks M11 btl: 3 coy*3plat
46 M11

Cavalry Gruppo Squadroni L3: 4 sqdr*3plat
61 L3
 
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FrancoFB

FrancoFB

Member
i changed to the rifle btln, the 45 mortar in the own squad from 1 to 3, was a misstyping

for the CCNN btln (for infantry div.) there is a alternate with 3x2x2, with the same squad, not 45mm (they are in the mg coy of the Legion), and one mg "coy" with 2 plat each 2 squad with 1 mg: for the btln 24 lmg, 4 mg EDIT i find an other source that is versus this ToE

i changed in the Bersaglieri autoportati, the MG plat down from 4 to 3 squad
 
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FrancoFB

FrancoFB

Member
In the Ceva book "Storia delle forze armate in Italia" the infantry division has a mortar btln with only 18 81mm, the Ceva source is the Montanari book "L'esercito italiano tra la 1a e la 2a guerra mondiale" so i stay with my source.

I add, on the CCNN btln i find in the diari del comando supremo, a passage where it's clear that the 45mm mortar were in the btln and not in the legion mg coy, on the "state" for the 1st september '40 is reported that the CCNN btln had only 3 brixia mortars and not the 9 assigned.
 
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D

Dili

Member
Anyone knows where that mixed mortar battalion i posted came from? Maybe an earlier version when the 45 mortar had still some reputation, and lack of 81?
 
jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I have no idea Dili. All my sources show the btg. mortai with only 81mm.

Pista! Jeff
 
D

Dili

Member
Thanks, Happy 2021.

Also here:

Regio Esercito - L'organizzazione

Sito italiano dedicato alla storia militare
www.regioesercito.it

Il battaglione mortai divisionale si articolava su: compagnia comando

2 compagnie mortai da 81 mm, ciascuna su 3 plotoni di 2 armi,

compagnia mortai da 45 mm su 3 plotoni di 9 armi ciascuno

salmerie a autocarreggio ( 24 autocarri).

Division 45mm Mortars total 153= 54 mortars per Regiment(18 in each Battalion)+, 18 Mortars in CCNN Legione+ 27 Mortars in Divisional mortar bn.
 
jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Dili

Appears to be the same information, one site copied from the other. My issue is that none of the written USSME sources offers this organization, nor have I found this organization in any of the OBs from various battles/actions. It might have been a organization that was planned, but never truly implemented.

Franco

Yes, another issue.

Pista! Jeff
 
FrancoFB

FrancoFB

Member
Afaik the mixed btln mortar was that of war table of the Ordinamento Pariani, but the mobilezed btln had only 81mm mortars, idk if because the Ordinamento Soddu had changed the btln or if the mobilization order did, afaik the infantry rgt stay with the 65/17 with the mobilization order, both Pariani and Soddu ToE had the 47/32
 
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jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
The division binaria is discussed on pp. 124-127. On p. 126 it states that the d. binaria was adopted under Pariani and is linked to footnote (1). Fn (1) listed the 1938 authorization for the d. binaria with the mixed mortar battalion.

The substitution of the 65/17 for the 47/32 in September 1939 is stated on 136. I didn't read anything specific about the 81mm/45mm mortars, but the discussion indicates that there was a lot of equipment shortages as they transformed from the d. ternaria to the d. binaria.

I have yet to find any source that indicates that the mixed mortar battalion was actually used in the 2GM.

Pista! Jeff
 
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FrancoFB

FrancoFB

Member
Jeff full agree,
what the Ordinamento tell is relatively bullshit if the mobilization order tell a different thing, also more if we get an other Ordinamento meanwhile
 
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