Italian forces in ASI the 10th june '40

FrancoFB

New Member
We had a relatively clear situation for the June 1st, for the strength if not for the organization thanks to the famous Allegato 4 (Attachment 4), it's available in this section of the forum on the mg thread.
The Allegato 4 give a situation before of mobilization i try to assign the divisions to each corps (at the 1st June)
X: Bologna, Savona
XX: Sabratha, Sirte, Brescia, Pavia
XXI: Marmarica, Cirene
XXII: 21 Aprile*, 3 Gennaio
XXIII: 23 Marzo, 28 Ottobre

The corps XX and XXI imho included the GAF,
* the 21 Aprile was already dissolved but the corp men and equipment not show this

continue...

p.s. i forgot to add some on army unit, the 10th army is clearly without nothing, has less men of the wartime establishment of divisional HQ; for the 5th this a Raggruppamento artiglieria d'armata (it's easy think to 5° Raggruppamento) with 48 guns and 24 mg and probably only the men for the army logistic and probably some cadre engineers units
 
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diciassette2000

New Member
I dont know what you want to say with the "....clear situation of italian force in Libia at 1 june 1940....." but i dont think that the "famous" (for me infamous) allegato 4 it's correct ......I dont think that the total amount of personnel in this allegato it's Ok expecially for the 10.a and 5.a armata...i think that in this total not were present the services (that were all present in Libia at this date)....a confirm its also in other allegato (5) that show.... Sbarcati in Tripolitania after 1 June 39184....sbarcati in cirenaica after 1 June 27409....so in allegati of Marina Militare 1940 (Roma) i read the total amount of personnel to Libia in 1940.......the total its 29249...........so what its incorrect..........mah??? an italian hodgepodge......
All the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

New Member
actually i think that the army total is right, i've some doubt on the data, maybe it's possible was a situation older
afaik the reserve in lybia were estimated 40-60 thousands.
i have not the allegato 5 and if i see it i don't remember it, your words are not clear for me
 

diciassette2000

New Member
I think you're right ...maybe it's possible was a situation older (I think phreaps may 1939....plans to invade Egipth)...but watch at "allegati"........
All the best
Maurizio
 

Attachments

diciassette2000

New Member
The report (allegato 4) was an older Sme record , its was a "rapporto sulla forza effettiva in Libia" (that was a periodical report) so its comprensive of all the "Forza" (so also with reserve)........
All the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

New Member
For the Attachment Anno 1940, i've the volume I (1st) "Dati Statistici" of "La marina italiana nella seconda guerra mondiale" (edition 1972) where is the same table but with the annotations for june "dal 10": from the 10th
I've also La Regia Aeronautica 1939-1943, Volume I, where is reported over 140 thousands men were transported by air in 1940 but is not indicated the destination neither if it's for all '40 or only from the 10th june
 

diciassette2000

New Member
Franco.....I not have seen this annotation.....(page???) but also if you are right but if from 1-6-1940 to 31-12-1940 went in AS 29.299 ....it's right to think that from 1-6-1940 to 10-6-1940 went in AS 39.184+27.409 soldiers ????????? I think that something is wrong...but????
Al the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

New Member
the annotation is on the table in my edition, the table is a page 122
29249 came from the 10th June to 31st December, and around 66 thousands in 9 day in peace time and the word "sbarcati" can be used also for air transport and again we back to the date error for the situation on the 1st June.
resuming all my data on men strength (actually or would be) in ASI
Army 207630 at 10th June from "Storia delle forze armate in Italia", Ceva, 1999
Army 175000 war paln of 30/10/39 from "Storia delle forze armate in Italia", Ceva, 1999
Army peacetime strength 20000 from "L'Esercito italiano alla vigila della 2a guerra mondiale", Montanari, 1982
Army from 11th to 15th day after the mobilization 115000 from "L'Esercito italiano alla vigila della 2a guerra mondiale", Montanari, 1982 (the 4 peace time division and the 4 "di rinforzo" all in wartime strength
Late winter '39 men missing for the wartime strength around 42 thousands from "L'Esercito italiano alla vigila della 2a guerra mondiale", Montanari, 1982
Army strength in the fall of '39 170 thousands (workers included) from "L'Esercito italiano alla vigila della 2a guerra mondiale", Montanari, 1982
6th May '40 meeting (Badoglio, Teruzzi, Soddu, Graziani, Cavagnari and Pricolo) 140 thousand men in Lybia from "L'Esercito italiano alla vigila della 2a guerra mondiale", Montanari, 1982
Same meeting report also 170 thousand but only 130 or 110 in service, different people different numbers, from "L'Esercito italiano alla vigila della 2a guerra mondiale", Montanari, 1982
the meeting Needs 80 thousands for the wartime establishments (not counting the Catanzaro), from "L'Esercito italiano alla vigila della 2a guerra mondiale", Montanari, 1982
the "La storia della dottrina e degli ordinamenti dell'esercito italiano", Volume II, Tomo II, Stefani, 1985 report the same number of the allegato 4 but only the last total, same book report the same total of allegato 5 for the 10 June but is reported as inclusive of the not army men
The "Dati Statistici...." report for the 30th june only 3579 navy men in Lybia


 

diciassette2000

New Member
All right ...also in my hand .....and others.....also 221.530 with 28500 libian soldiers + GdF, MVSN, Regia Marina, regia Aereonautica, CCRR and PAI ....so 236.013 (Rochat)....but WHAT IS the right way.......I think it's an italian hodgepodge.......mah???
ALl the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

New Member
For the "La marina italiana nella seconda guerra mondiale, volume VI: La difesa del traffico con l'Africa settentrionale dal 10 giugno 1940 al 30 settembre 1941, 1978" the peacetime passenger ships capacity of the ports in Lybia were 4 ships at time for Tripoli, 3 for Bengasi and 2 for Tobruk
Same book report that at the 13th June there were 13 thousands of Army men that were in Italy but would be stay in Lybia, with 1250 vehicles, various teens thousands of tons of material
 

diciassette2000

New Member
At page 5 same book........a).......only war units transport......15 days...........b) Corpo di Spedizione transport 65 days........I dont think that Regia Marina can transport AS 39.184+27.409 soldiers in nine days........?????
All the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

New Member
The corpo di spedizione had 136000 men, 5000 quadrupeds, 13000 vehicles, 40 fighters
the complement were 42000 men and 5600 vehicles, afaik just before of war the vehicles sent were very few hundreds
the port heavy limit was the unloading of material
again you miss the air transport for the people

p.s. thinking to the meeting of may 9th and to army efficiency report, is not on may also?
it's possible that the allegato 4 true date is 1st may

p.s. 2 from the meeting we also known the miss of 80 thousands to wartime establishment, 67 thds were sent to 10th june and 13 were to send at the 13th june total 80
 
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FrancoFB

New Member
An other trouble
for the Allegato 4 the navy had 158 guns, (and 238 mg)
for the "Dati Statistici..." at the 10th June the navy coastal defense guns were:
ASuW 4-280, 16-190, 19-149, 5-120, 5-100, 5-76
AA 12-102, 11-76
DP 12-102, 26-76
total: 115 guns
note: there were not 280 (mortar) in Libya commonly the 4-280 are considered the 4-254 of San Giorgio, the others San Giorgio guns: were 8-190 and 10-100
For the Ramius page the Navy had as AA: 8 76 btry and 4 102 btry (and 33 guns from 13,2 to 37mm); and as AsuW: 2 190 btry (8 guns), 4 149 btry (19), 1 76 btry (4) this is ~ compatible with the info on "Dati Statistici..." taking in the count San Giorgio weapons
The guns on the warships based in Libya, excluding San Giorgio, were 15-120, 12-100, (and 8-40 and 40-13,2), but there were 12 auxiliary (all with 76 as main gun, most one) and 10 sub (8-100 and 2 -102 [34/36-13,2])
 

diciassette2000

New Member
In effect the San Giorgio have 4x254 for main armament ...also 5x100 because the guns are in effect 5 dont 10 (impianti binati da 100) so:
4x280mm=4x 254/30 (Regia nave San Giorgio)
16x190mm=2x190/39 (Tripoli-8 guns)+8x190/45(Regia nave San Giorgio)
19x149mm=3xBattery at Tobruk (5+4+4 149/47 guns), + a battery (149/42 guns) at Bomba-Menelao (6 guns)
5x120mm= a battery (5x120/45 guns) at Bomba Menelao
24x102mm=6xBattery at Tobruk (6x4 102/35 guns)
5x100mm(twin)=Regia Nave San Giorgio
42x76mm=2xbattery at Tripoli (8 guns), 2x battery at Bomba-Menelao (8 guns), 4xBattery(6x4 guns) at Tobruk, a battery at bengasi (5 guns)
120 guns

All the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

New Member
all guns on San Giorgio were twins so 5 twins 100 count as 10 guns, the 254 were 254/45
i nevear heard a 120/45 btry in Libya so early, have you some other info and source?,
previously on the 5 120 on "Dati Statistici" i thinked some errors relate to the error on the only 5 100 from San Giorgio and these were AA guns
 

diciassette2000

New Member
mah.......I dont know if that is a mistake......I have a note "Francesco Mattesini corrispondenza e........vol1 II Tomo that (page730) show (at 28-9-1940) four 4 x120/45 batteries in NA (Bengasi, Derna, Porto Bardia and Menelao).....phreaps at Menelao also in june 1940 was a a battery.....or no.....mah???? The info on it's existence came from a note on a "visura at Archivio of Marina Militare " make from a my friend on 1985 year..........
All the best
maurizio
 
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