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June 1940, north Africa division paper ToE and actual ToE

FrancoFB

Member
Lst type of division available in North Africa were the two Libyan division, 1st and 2nd, called also with the surname of their commanders
they had a paper ToE (both Ceva and Stefani had the same data, i suppose also Montanari but i've not checked) of:
HQ
two libyan infantry "raggruppamenti" each with HQ and 3 btln
one libyan 47/32 coy
two libyan artillery btln each on HQ and 3 btry
two libyan 20mm btry
one libyan mixed engineer btln
services (with train)
871 nationals, 6,353 Libyans, 216 lmg, 66 mg, 8 47/32, 16-20/65, 24-77/28

in the Allegato 4 is listed the strength of the 1st division
1,061 nationals, 5,787 Libyans, 871 quadrupedes, 6,815 rifles, 208 lmg, 156 mg, 28 pieces, 560 vehicles, 54 motocycles, 54 bicycles
there is a note "include libyans not divisional units", probably some MG coy
and that of 2nd division, ever with same note
1,983 nationals, 13,625 Libyans, 2,826 quadrupedes, 13,528 rifles, 473 lmg, 308 mg, 64 pieces, 5 mortar, 474 vehicles, 32 motorcycles, 19 bicycles
 

FrancoFB

Member
From Stefani book
 

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Dili

Member
That seems a mixture of allegato 4 and 5. First text is 4 , then the 5. It does not explain how it jumped from 167000 to 236000 in 10 days.

A thing i noticed is while those 2 documents say forza effettiva for both, here it says 10 June is forza presente, but maybe the author was being sloppy.
 

FrancoFB

Member
Yes i think that Stefani source are the Allegati in the Montanari book,
Ceva report a army strength for the 10th June of 207,630 same number is reported also from Stefani in an other Tomo
this number is practically that of Allegato 5, taking out the not army and rctl men
 
In the June of '40, the italian army had three type of division in the north Africa
the most common type was the "Divisione autotrasportabile tipo A.S.", there were nine (Sabratha, Sirte, Marmarica, Cirene, Pavia, Bologna, Brescia, Savona, Catanzaro)
on the paper they organization was
Division HQ
Two infantry rgt, each with: three rifle btln, one 81mm mortar coy, one 65/17 battery.
One replacement btln
One mg btln
One motorcyclist Bersaglieri coy
One 47/32 anti tank coy
One artillery rgt, with: two 75/27 btln, one 100/17 btln, two 20/65 btryes
One mixed engineer btln
Services
Eventually one L-3 tank(-ette) btln

men: 453 officer, 594 NCO, 9,931 enlisted= 10,978 (with the L btln)
weapons: 9,025 rifles, 262 LMG, 232 MG, 111 45mm mortar, 12 81mm mortar, 16 20/65 guns, 8 47/32 guns, 8 65/17 guns, 24 75/27 guns, 12 100/17 howitzer,
vehicles: 398 car/truck, 249 motorcycles/three-wheeler, 36 tractor, 180 bicycles, 46 L-3

a two divisions army corps would have, if w/o support unit 136 pieces, 246 mortars, 464 MG, 524 LMG, 18,050 rifles, 796 car/truck, 496 motortcycles/three-wheler, 72 tractors, 360 bicycles, 92 L-3, actually a bit more for the HQ staff.

the famous Allegato 4 give us the situation at 1st June (or maybe at 1st May)
a note "Forza effettiva" is the men strength and include also the men not available that day, so include sick, on leave and so
the army corps X, XX, XXI had only AT A.S. 40 divisions this would be respectively 2, 4, 2, but the XX and XXI include also all the GAF units

p.s. i corrected the mean of forza effettiva
Where are the 232 M/G located? I have 48 in the Battaglione Mitraglieri & 92 in the L3 plus 54 spread across the six Battaglione Fanteria. That's 194, so I am missing 38?

Thanks, David.
 
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FrancoFB

Member
actually i think that the six Battaglioni fucilieri had 48 (8 each), there were 18 in the artillery rgt 2 each field artillery btry, 4 in the motorcycle coy, one in each 65/17 btry, now missing 20, i've assigned 12 to replacement battalion, because peacetime btl had 12 MG, so i miss just 8
i've already writed this in post #3.
there is a alternate count the motorcycle coy is a MG coy and had 12 MG, so the MG count is right but not that of LMG
 
actually i think that the six Battaglioni fucilieri had 48 (8 each), there were 18 in the artillery rgt 2 each field artillery btry, 4 in the motorcycle coy, one in each 65/17 btry, now missing 20, i've assigned 12 to replacement battalion, because peacetime btl had 12 MG, so i miss just 8
i've already writed this in post #3.
there is a alternate count the motorcycle coy is a MG coy and had 12 MG, so the MG count is right but not that of LMG
Thanks Franco. I must have missed that 3rd post.

Kind regards,
David.
 
Gentlemen ... keep in mind that outside of the academic discussions none of the AS 40 type self-transportable divisions was ever completed in the organic, attesting the average number of 7,000 men of those of the line (10th army) as consistency, moreover the chronic lack of vehicles he ensured that only the 10th army (and therefore being self-transporting divisions the same divisions went on foot through the desert often and willingly) was provided with the minimum means necessary for logistical survival. Only the armaments were completed, but also for the 10th army alone, "sacking" the GAF and the 5th army which remained virtually without counter-tank, anti-aircraft pieces and partially without the fields ....
All the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

Member
On the men in North Africa, in the "Le operazioni in Africa settentrionale.." volume 1 page 167 is reported
men at 20th September, Army: 225,612, Others 18,888
 

Dili

Member
Only about 12000(including civilians) arrived to the army up to end of September so that would have mean 213 -214000 in 10 June. Still there is also air transport to account for but also personnel went back to Italy by sea nd air.
Do we have any information of mobilisation and what means "forza effettiva"
 

Dili

Member
Thanks, missed it.
Looking at other forces if true we have 18888 in 20 Set, Allegato 4 says there were 14483 in 1 June , 675 Navy went by ship until September end, certainly more by air. But i doubt +3000 persons. Still the issue here is less unexplained than the Army numbers. We need detailed evolution data in some Corps to have a reference.
 

Dili

Member
Without numbers it has no meaning for us to find the reason for the serious discrepancy in Allegati and other data.
 

FrancoFB

Member
For "Storia del servizio militare in Italia" volume III, page 387, the Army had 1,432,000 men the first June with a lack of 304,000 men, they become 1,635,000 (207,630 in Libya) the 10th
 

Dili

Member
In second page author evens recognise that Montanari gives a complete different number. The mess continues, the miracle of 67000 men "sbarcati" in 10 days continue. None of these historians seems to be surprised by that.
 

FrancoFB

Member
Oh yes this is "Il Sahara italiano nella seconda guerra mondiale" by Rainero, i've not cited because it's the same of Allegato 5; Rainero list only the Army it's obvious that is different from Montanari if he get the Montanari number for all the forces

imho the error in the Allegato 5 is the word "sbarcati" not the numbers
 

Dili

Member
Yeah seems you are right.

I don't see how 67000 men arrive in less than a year which would mean the numbers of Allegato 4 were for 1939. It would still be 5600 per month arrivals.

So you mean it should be "mobilised" instead of "sbarcati"?
 
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