June 1940, north Africa division paper ToE and actual ToE

[FrancoFB]

should be came from all the sources, just new, sure a few were actually sbarked

Fabarm L4S Mixed Bag Upland Shoot

 

[Dili]

For contrast, to see how it had to increase.

 

[Dili]

Note btw that the Allegato 5 is the Allegato 4 + the so called sbarcati. The core numbers are the same.

 

[FrancoFB]

Note the provision to send 8 new divisions with no men for more support combat or logistic.
a curiosity they need around 7,000 CCNN but what hell they did?, this are not for the CCNN divisions, the territorial btln were only 4, an other mistery

 

[Dili]

Yes, btw at begin of 39 if these numbers are to be believed there were 52735 REI also says in Libia the reserves were 36000 - an interesting data from this document - even if a high Libyan proportion. So in theory 88000 men. to increase to 225000 by 21 September 1940 it means roughly 18 months at which a rate of 7600 men should arrive per month. The data you presented for War months are not even close to that. So it would need more than 7600/month before war.

 

[FrancoFB]

Before of war probably we had a capability over 10.000 to day, probably some times higher of this, just need to pay the ship owners

 

[FrancoFB]

Now i've read "In Africa Settentrionale La preparazione al conflitto..." i change my opinion the Allegato 4 and 5 or 16 and 16a as they are called in the "In Africa Settentrionale..." , are right, actually 66,xxx were sbarked in early June. a page 79 in reported of a meeting of the 30th May with Badoglio, Graziani, Pricolo, Cavagnari and Soddu they noted that the 80,000 men to sent in Libya need the 6th June for complete, actually we know this was not completed at the 10th June, only 66,xxx were came.

An other info, this in contrast partially with normal know, note 1 page 61 (continue to page 62) report for the "Divisione autotrasportabile" tipo A.S. same units excluding the complement btln but for a total of 9,000 men and 400 vehicles, 250 lmg, 146 mg, 108 45mm mortars, 12 81mm mortars, 68 artillery pieces and 46 L tank-ettes (this for only 4 divisions)

 

[Dili]

I have to disagree, that's 6000 per day, which means several liners per day. The ports structure and the number of ships for that continuous service were not available.

 

[FrancoFB]

No, we know the capability was around 1,000 per hour each of the 3 major harbour

P.S. Tripoli, Bengasi, Tobruk, page 7 of "La difesa del traffico con l'Africa Settentrionale. Dal 10 Giugno 1940 al 30 Settembre 1941" page 7, edition 1978

2nd P.S. larger liners capability, i omitted that out Mediterranean Sea, we know that as troop transports liners embark much more soldiers that passengers
Rex: 2,032 passengers
Conte di Savoia: 2,200
Roma: 1,740
Augustus: 1,675
Vulcania, Neptunia, Oceania: around 1,500
Duilio: 1,300
Giulio Cesare: 1,831

 

[Dili]

Rex, Conte Savoia, Roma, Augustus were too big.

 

[FrancoFB]

the merchant fleet had 876 ships, don't counting sail ships, over 100 tons, (in average 3,875 tons), so was not so hard find some to sent in Libya.

i've read also "L'esercito italiano tra la 1a e la 2a guerra mondiale" the Allegato 75 report a strength for the 10th June of 7,924 officer and 207,630 other ranks in Libya, within 675 and 15,000 CC.NN.

 

[Dili]

You need proper ships not just send soldiers in everything that moves.: liners like you presented in first post . Italy had them but with a 6-7 days round trip for say a median capacity of 1000 that means 6 per day vs 6 days it means 36 ships with 1000 capacity. Italy obviously did not had that quantity , besides there would be some ships in repairs, others not available in commercial operations.

 

[FrancoFB]

Merchant ships used for transport to Libya, from the 10th June to 31st August, take in the count they can also use warships
so they had not 36?
Piroscafi:
Esperia
Maria Eugenia
Gloria Stella
Mauly
Bainsizza
Marco Polo
Caffaro
Bosforo
Sardegna
Ravenna
Argentea
Silvano
Mira
Absirtea
Zena
Rapido
Goggiam
Achille
Lino Campanella
Leopardi
Delia
Prospero
Ascianghi
Maddalena Odero
Elisa
Mauro Croce
Ezilda Croce
Priaruggia
Santa Chiara
Pozzuoli
Monte Gargano
Verace
Doris Ursino
Celio
Pallade
Luigi Rizzo
Motia
Sirena
San Giovanni Battista


Motonavi:
Victoria
Marco Foscarini
Vettor Pisani
Calitea
Francesco Barbaro
Cold di Lana
Città di Bari
Città di Napoli
Città di Palermo
Città di Barletta
Lago Tana
Ramb III
Marin Sanudo
Città di Messina
Adele
Città di Livorno
A. Gritti

 

[Dili]

What you talking about? they did not had 36 ships with 1000 capacity. Of those you posted only 4 had it Esperia, Marco Polo, Sardegna, Victoria.

Edit: My cycle calculations are 1 day loading 2 days travel, 1 day unloading , 2 days travel.

 

[FrancoFB]

Catanzaro arrived between 9 and 30 June 1940? in what convoy?

in the article that you linked is reported that the infantry of Catanzaro arrived from 1st to 9th june

 

[Dili]

in the article that you linked is reported that the infantry of Catanzaro arrived from 1st to 9th june

Yes. But note that strangely Allegato 4(1 June) and Allegato 5(10 June) puts same number of men in XXII Corpo. So not reflecting Catanzaro arrival from one to another.

Note also the increase in XX Corpo is due to the 2 Btg lavoratori that arrived 24 May. 54073+2362=56435

 

[FrancoFB]

The Allegato 5, has not the detail of Allegato 4, they report the men came from 1st to 10th just for region of landing, not for corps

 

[Dili]

What they report is most certainly false. There is no way 67000 men arrived in 10 days.

 

[FrancoFB]

they can use larger liner, they used it for sent men in Massaua for the 1936 war, i don't think that Tripoli and Tobruk ports are smaller

 

[FrancoFB]

Paper Weapons for unit in the AT A.S.40 division, my informed distribution:
HQ: 4 LMG
Infantry rgt (x2): 4-65/17, 6 81mm mortar, 54 45mm mortar, 25 MG, 108 LMG
Replacement btln: 3 45mm mortar, 12 MG, 27 LMG
MG btln: 48 MG
Motorcyclist coy: 4 MG, 12 LMG
A.T. coy: 8-47/32
Artillery rgt: 12-100/17, 24-75/27, 16-20/65, 18 MG
L-3 btln: 46 L-3 with 92 MG

this count let out three LMG, possibly they are in the L-3 btln, and eight MG and i've no idea where they can be.
(it's possible a alternative count, if the motorcycle coy was a mg coy (but i never heard so), it had a weaponry of twelwe MG, so the MG count is ok but we have uncounted fifteen LMG they can be put an other nine in the replacement btln, the remain six can go to L-3 btln (or four there and two to HQ

after read the Catanzaro article, and others i change this in
HQ: 4 LMG
Infantry rgt (x2): 4-65/17, 6 81mm mortar, 54* 45mm mortar, 36 MG, 108 LMG * this could be a error in the division equipment, and actually on paper were only 27
Replacement btln: 3 45mm mortar, 9 MG, 27 LMG
MG btln: 36 MG
Motorcyclist coy: 5 MG, 15 LMG
A.T. coy: 8-47/32
Artillery rgt: 12-100/17, 24-75/27, 16-20/65, 18 MG
L-3 btln: 46 L-3 with 92 MG

with this count there are not weapons left out