LII Brigata Speciale/raggruppamento sahariano

[jwsleser]

Posted 13 April 2009 - 07:42 AM by antonio

I have read that two battalions of this brigade arrived in march 1943 and were attached to Raggruppamento Mannerini.

Does anybody which battalions were those?. I have tried to trace the units of the raggruppamento and I have found two mitraglieri battalions XVI and CXVI. Could it be?

Best regards

Antonio

Posted 14 April 2009 - 03:26 AM by jwsleser

Antonio

Your question is interesting and I have started to do some research. A few points of clarification.

I assume your are asking about L brigata speciale commanded by gen. Imperiali di Francavilla. I have not read of a LII brigata speciale. The core of this force was two battalions from Superga, several armored and reconnaissance units, and artillery. I can post a detailed OB later this week.

The other unit is raggruppamento Sahariano, which was commanded by gen. Mannerini. The core of this force was the Libico sahariano companies. Two battalions, XVI and CXVI, are identified as coming from the divisione fanteria Pistoia. I have not be able to identify these battalions as machinegun units, although that appears to be likely. The 350°reggimento fanteria joined the raggruppamento Sahariano sometime before March. This appears to be an independent infantry regiment and I am still trying to discover more information about the unit.

Unfortunately, I am still missing one book that could help answer this question. I will post more when I have time.

Pista!

Jeff

Posted 14 April 2009 - 10:49 AM by antonio

Dear Jeff,

My sources of information are: M. Montanari Vol IV enfidaville , G. Messe La 1ª Armata Italiana in Tunisia.

According to the first One , Raggruppamento Sahariano had two Mg Battalions XVI, CXVI, (from its number I guess that originally they should have come from 16th Pistoia Division).

In G. Messe book he tells that previous to the battle of Mareth 2 battalions coming from a LII Brigate Speciale ( but that unit never arrived as a whole) joined the Raggruppamento, and several 88mm batteries.

In that book is confirmed that the original assets of Raggruppamento Mannerini were:

350 Reggimento Fanteria (2 Btn)
LV Btn Savona
Btn GaF
VI CCNN Btn (although I have seen this one attached to other division)
Gruppo Valle (7 Sahariana coys)
V Gruppo squadroni Novara
Reparto Celere Arditi (103 compagnia Camionettista)
290 Raggruppamento Artiglieria

The G. Messe copy that I have got misses the "tabole" that should be at the end of it, but I guess that thosedocuments are included in M. Montanari book. If anybody has the book La 1ª Armata Italiana in Tunisia, please confirm that.

Best regards

Antonio

Posted 14 April 2009 - 01:22 PM by jwsleser

Good day Antonio

Yes, I have both books, including all the tavole for the Messe volume.

Okay, now that I understand what you are asking, this is what I have found. It will help us to compare if you share the page numbers where you read the information.

First, the correct name of the unit is raggruppamento sahariano (Mannerini was the commander, but the unit wasn't referred to by that name). See Messe pages 39, 132, and tavola 8 (the one you are missing). My copy of Montanari is at home, but I am sure he also lists the unit as raggruppamento sahariano.

Messe (page 38) states the plan was to tranform the raggruppamento sahariano into a divison. This would be accomplished by integrating the LII brigata speciale into the raggruppamento. The unit would be renamed divisione Savona.

Messe (page 39) states the 365° (CCCLXV) btg. complementi was assigned to the raggruppamento in February. In the first part of March, the 252° (CCLII) btg. mitraglieri and 2 btg. from the LII brigata speciale were assigned to the raggruppamento. I assume the latter two btg. are the 350°reggimento. The problem is that none of these units (except the 350°) are shown on tavola 8. Some of the units discussed were not at Mareth, hence could have been left off tavola 8.

Tavola 8 lists these units in raggruppamento sahariano:

350° reggimento fanteria (I e II btg.)
btg. LV (from Savona)
btg. XVI e CXVI (from Pistoia)
btg. GAF (unnumbered)
290° raggruppamento artiglieria
- CCXCCII gruppo (2 batteries 75/27)
- CCXCCIII gruppo (2 batteries 75/27)
- CCIX gruppo (2 batteries 75/27)
- I gruppo Sahariano (2 batteries 75/27)
- CCCXXXIV gruppo (2 batteries 75/27)
- CCCXXXVI gruppo (2 batteries 75/27)
- comp. c.a. (20mm)
- battery 65/17
Engineer gruppo (one artieri and 1 colleg.)

raggruppamento was reinforced with:
Gr. sq. Novvara
6 sahariano companies
ptg. celeri Lodi

There are two other units I need to check their symbols to correctly identify them.

That is where I am at this time. I need to read more of the Messe book to see what he states. Montanari has less detail on this isue, so I am not sure if he will offer any more answers.

Pista!

Jeff

Posted 14 April 2009 - 03:02 PM by antonio

Dear Jeff,

Thanks a lot,

Since my Messe books misses all the Tavola, would it be possible for you to scan the two orders of battle for 1st Italian Army (Battle of Mareth and april).

Since I have just purchased that book I'm still reading it. But When Messe refers to the reinforcements from february until april, he mentions the two battalions of LII Brigata Speciale. The 350th Infantry regiment was originally a GaF unit, that garrisoned Tobruk and that area at the time of El Alamein, so I believe that he could not refer to the 350th infantry regiment as reinforcements.

On the other side I do not know when the XVI and CXVI MG Battalions arrived in North Africa.

Best regards

Antonio Palao

Posted 15 April 2009 - 02:50 AM by jwsleser

Antonio

I have PM you.

RE: btg. XVI e CXVI. I am not sure these are mitraglieri units. None of the sources state they are MG. When you look at the Quadro di Battaglia (tavoli 7 e 8), the symbols used for these two units are infantry, not MG.

RE: LII brigata speciale. I can't find any information on these two brigades beyond what is provided in Messe and Montanari. What is your source that the 350°reggimento fanteria was formed from GAF units at Tripoli?

In all, a challegne. More to read.

Pista!

Jeff

Posted 16 April 2009 - 07:16 PM antoinio

According to G. Messe book on 12th February 1943 1st Italian Army should have 9 MG Battalions, in Tabola 8 it can be clearly distinguished the following battalions:

XXV
CCLXXXI
CCCXL
CCCL
Gruppo de Valle (Saharian coys): Messe says that they were MG

4 MG Battalions remain to be found, they could be some the following:

XXXIX Esplorante, VI CCNN, X CCNN "M", IX Autonomo, San Marco (Tobruk), XVIII Carabinieri, LV Savona, XVI Pistoia, CXVI Pistoia.

Best regards

 

[jwsleser]

A recent query caused me to return to this old thread. Having a few more books has allowed some answers to emerge.

RE: CXVI btg. mtr. This battalion was originally part of the LII brg. speciale and was transferred to Tunisia. It was a btg. mitraglieri. (L'esercito e i suoi corpi, vol. terzo, tomo I, p.469).

RE: XVI btg. mtr. I can't find any definitive information on this unit, so I will offer a theory. The 16º d.f. was a regular infantry division, hence had the XVI btg. mortai. When it was converted to a d. moto. in Oct. 1941, I am assuming that the mortar battalion was converted to a machine gun battalion (a d. moto. didn't have a mortar battalion but did have a machine gun btg.). Until someone can offer a source or a better theory, that is what I have.

RE: The LV btg. «Savona» was a btg. complementi. It was in Tripoli and then was used to defend Hons when the 55º d.f. «Savona» was sent to the Egyptian frontier. (Terza offense britannica in A.S., p.327).

RE: 350º rgt. f. Antonio was correct when he stated that this regiment was formed from G.a.F. units. It couldn't be the two battalion-size units transferred from the LII brg. speciale.

RE: CCLII (252º) btg. mtr. This battalion is listed on p.39 as stated above, but appears to disappear.

Okay, it is late here. I will need to pick this up tomorrow.

Pista! Jeff

 

[David Wormell]

Thanks Jeff.

 

[David Wormell]

RE: CXVI btg. mtr. This battalion was originally part of the LII brg. speciale and was transferred to Tunisia. It was a btg. mitraglieri. (L'esercito e i suoi corpi, vol. terzo, tomo I, p.469).

When was this unit raised? And when was it transferred to Tunisia please?

 

[David Wormell]

Was there a LV Btg Mtr & LV Btg Complementi?

 

[diciassette2000]

Jeff
First of all, it should be pointed out that in Tunisia there has never been a LII (52nd) Special Brigade but only one L (50th) Special Brigade or Imperial Brigade named after its commander. Then as regards the so-called "machine gun battalions" it appears to me that in Tunisia deployed with the 1st Army there were only 2 and they had the 25th as numerical (ex Bologna division, already existing at the time of the battle of Beda Fomm then reinstated in the Sabratha division in 1941 then still remained in Tripoli as a garrison to then be withdrawn together with the whole "Libyan block" up to Tunisia) and the 281st GAF (formed with the remnants of the GAF machine gunners who also survived the campaign and the subsequent retreat in Tunisia) while the 16th and 116th "Pistoia" battalions were nothing more than complementary battalions that arrived in Tunisia to reinvigorate the "mother" division and then were instead diverted to the Mannerini Group (or Saharan) to "plug the holes" created after the Mareth and Chotts campaigns. The same thing is said of the 55th "Savona" battalion which was also a complement battalion and not a machine-gun battalion. After all, an easy comparison can be found in Table No. 8 of the book "The 1st Army in Tunisia" (Battle picture of the 1st Army at the beginning of the Mareth battle) where under the box relating to the Saharan Group 6 infantry battalions can be seen (full square with upper bar) including the 16th and 116th complement battalions Pistoia. If instead you look at the box relating to the army troops (1st on the left) of the same table, you will see the symbols relating to the 25th and 281st machine-gun battalions GAF (acronym GAF omitted by mistake), i.e. a filled square with overlying frieze and filled ball. As regards the 350th Infantry Regiment AS (GAF), it was established in Castel Benito (Tripoli) as the 1st Infantry Regiment GAF on 1 February 1942 with the help of personnel drawn from GAF sectors 33rd, 34th .o and 35.o of Tripoli and from 19/B of Nalut. The new unit was initially structured on three battalions, command company and regimental command and initially placed in command of the Littorio division and then moved on March 12, 1942 under the direct dependence of the Command of Tripolitania. On 12/3/1942 the regiment was redesignated 350th AS Infantry Regiment with mobilization center at 1st Tripoli GAF Infantry Regiment. The battalions of the 350th initially participated in operations detached from various sector operational commands and then moved on at the beginning of 1943 to the command of the Mannerini (or Saharan) group. After the retreat towards Tunisia, he always fought in the Mannerini Group (or Saharan), however, made up of the command and two battalions. It was dissolved in April 1943.
All the best
Maurizio

​

 

[Dili]

This is what i have about LII brigata speciale

The LII brigata speciale was raised in Firenza on 31 December 1942. It consisted of the 335° rgt. Fanteria, 203° rgt. Artigleria, and the CXVI btg. mitraglieri. On 15 January, the two regiments were renamed as the 36°rgt. Fanteria bis e 3°rgt. Artiglieria bis. The brigade was scheduled to deploy to Tunisia, but that never happened due to the rapid collapse of the Axis defense. The brigade was renamed the XXXI Brigata Costiera on 1 July 1943 and assigned to the 7a Armata to cover Taranto.

 

[jwsleser]

I am slow at writing a post as I am trying to include all the sources.

Dili. yes that is from L'esercito e i suoi corpi, vol. terzo, tomo I, p.469.

Thanks Maurizio! Some clarifications.

First I never stated that the LII brg. speciale was sent to Tunisia, only it components. The plan was that the brigade would be transferred but it never happened (see Messe, p.342). The headquarters itself remained in Italy and became the XXXI brg. costiera as stated by Dili.

RE: LV btg. «Savona». Agreed. As I stated, it was a btg. complemento, not a btg. mtr.

RE: btg. mtr. Both Messe (1 feb 43, p.336) and Montanari (1 feb. 43, vol. IV p.640) cite a primary document that lists 9 btg. mtr. This is what Antonio was trying to reconcile against the various OBs of the Battle of Mareth.

The primary source gives the following btg.: «Pistoia» - 1 btg., «Spezia» - 2 btg., Truppe di armata - 6 btg.

Messe tavole 8 lists the following: Truppe d'armata - XXV, CCLXXXI (agree that this is GaF), «GG.FF.» - CCCL, CCCLX (the cdo. 1 cp.), Settore Sfax - XXV, Settore Gabes - CCCXL. Total of 5 btg. mtr. Note that XXV is listed twice (Truppe d'armata and Sfax).

Montanari pp. 369–371 lists the following: «GG.FF.» - 2 btg.mtr. (no ID), «Pistoia» CCCL, Truppe di armata - XXV, CCLXXI. Total of 5 btg. mtr. A question is whether the CCLXXI is a typo and should be CCLXXXI.

As Antonio stated, four btg. mtr. are missing. Between the two sources, the following btg. mtr. are specifically named: XXV, CCLXXI, CCLXXXI, CCCXL, CCCL. Total 5 btg.

As I previously stated, CXVI btg. mtr. was part of the LII brg. speciale and is not a btg. complemento. It was sent to Tunisia. That is a total of 6 btg. mtr.

XVI btg. f. doesn't make sense as an infantry battalion (possibly as a complemento). There was a XVI btg. mortai in the Pistoia before it was motorized. A motorized division doesn't have a mortar battalion but does have a btg. mtr. The division transitioned in Oct 41, so there was plenty of time for the mortar battalion to be converted to a btg. mtr. The 1 feb 43 list shows 1 btg. mtr. with «Pistoia». The CXVI btg. mtr. only arrived in the first 10 days of March, so it shouldn't be listed in the 1 feb document. Battistelli does state that «Pistoia» had a XVI btg. complemento (p.212). So is this a complemento or a mtr.? That is 7 btg. mtr.

Messe p.39 states the CCLII btg. mtr. was sent to Tunisia. This is an interesting name. A two-hundred series for the LII. That is 8 btg. mtr.

Antonio indicated that Messe stated that the sahariane cp. were cp. mtr. I haven't found that comment as of yet, but I will continue looking. Terza offensiva schizzo 52 shows the following cp. mtr.: 7 Lib, 8 Lib, 50 Lib, 51 Lib, 62 Lib, 63 Lib, and the 72. It also has the XXIX/A btg. mtr. GaF. Many of these companies were likely the same as those listed for ragg. Sahariano. It is also possible that the unnamed GaF btg. in tavole 8 is the XXIX/A btg. GaF. If correct, that is total of 9 btg. mtr.

Using only the unit numbers, tavole 8 does list: XVI, CXVI, XXV, CCLXXXI, CCXL, CCCL, CCCLX, and the cp. sahariane. If the GaF is the XXIX/A and CCLXXI is a typo, that is a total of 8 btg. The cp. sahariane makes 9. If the XVI is complemento, then it is 8.

I feel the possibility that the units I have listed above are btg. complementi is unlikely. Messe lists the following btg. complementi on p.39: 80, 82, 84, 85, 364, 365, 367, 106 c.c., and 106 bis c.c. Note the XVI and CXVI are not listed.

Pista! Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

Jeff
It is useless to try to make parallels between a mirror of an army in full organic transformation (1st Army on February 1st 1943) and an order of battle of about a month later operating on the Mareth line. In my humble opinion the thing is more simple than one might think, namely that originally the machine-gun battalions had mostly been extruded from GAF departments and were 330th, 340th, 350th, 360th and 281st of which the 330th, after having been part of the army troops of the 1st Army up to Mareth, was transferred to the 5th Panzerarmee and more specifically to the 50th special Imperial brigade starting from 19 January (therefore well before of the battle of Mareth) (General Report Sogno page 243) (1st company then 2nd company in mid-February), while the 340th, after being directly dependent on the 1st Army, passed under the Sector defensive of Gabes, the 350th was instead divided between the Pistoia division (one company) and the GGFF division (command and one company), while the 360th remained entirely with the GGFF. The 281st remained attached to the 1st Army at all times. Then there were the 17th, 25th and 60th machine-gun battalions which were already in existence from the beginning of 1941 because they belonged to 1940-type trucking divisions, then detached at the time of the transformation of the mother units first into Motorized type 41 and then AS 42 . After being garrisoned in Tripoli for the duration of the campaign, they followed the retreat and were taken over by the 1st Army. The 25th remained assigned to the 1st Army while the 60th (ex Sabratha) was transferred to the 50th Imperial Brigade at the beginning of March 43 (Dream report page 243). Of the 17th I have not found any trace even at the SME in Rome. The "quiz" remains about the 116th machine-gun battalion (formerly 52nd special brigade) certainly transferred to Tunisia given that of the special brigade only the 335th infantry regiment, which became the 36th coastal infantry regiment, has been transformed into coastal troops and the 203rd Artillery Regiment which became the 3rd Artillery Regiment bis. In my humble opinion the battalion which passed to the Mannerini Group was transformed into a normal infantry battalion as shown by the graphic table 8 of the Messe between February and March 1943. Another doubt also remains and that is the existence of another company machine gunners within the staff of the GGFF division always in table 8 of Messe .... if anyone has ideas about it, expose them ....
All the best and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Maurizio

Thank you for the new information. Excellent!

It isn't useless to compare the 1 February and the 20 March documents. The 1 February document is a primary source and provides a starting point for determining what changed during the subsequent month and a half. Your post provide much great information that was missing from the discussion. The fact that we were comparing the two generated this additional information.

So here is what we have:

17º (XVII) - Likely in the 1 Feb list, unknown.
25º (XXV) - Likely in the 1 Feb list, at Mareth (listed in tavola 8)
60º (LX) - Likely in the 1 Feb list, not at Mareth (attached to the L brg. speciale).
116º (CXVI) - Not in 1 Feb list, at Mareth (but listed in tavola 8 as fanteria).
281º (CCLXXXI) - Not in 1 Feb list, at Mareth (listed in tavola 8).
330º (CCCXXX) - In the 1 Feb list, not at Mareth (attached to the L brg. speciale).
340º (CCCXL) - In the 1 Feb list, at Gabes (listed in tavola 8).
350º (CCCL) - In the 1 Feb list, at marten (listed in tavola 8).
360º (CCCLX) - In the 1 Feb list, at Mareth (listed in tavola 8).
XXIX/A (GaF) - Likely in the 1 Feb (but unsure), unknown about Mareth (not listed in tavola 8).
The cp. mtr. Sahariane - Likely in the 1 Feb list, likely at marten (cp. shown in tavola 8?).
The single company in the GG.FF. Possibly the 72ª cp. mtr. I mentioned above?

The divisional btg. mtr. do raise some questions.

17º (XVII) - I have this battalion as destroyed at Beda Fomm. According to Battistelli the division had the LXIX in 41-42 (p.280). However, Prima offensive Italo-tedesca lists the XVII with Sabratha in April in 1941 (p.343). Did this btg. survive or was it reconstituted?
25º (XXV) - I know this btg. survived Beda Fomm, so no issue.
60º (LX) - Same as the 17º, did it also survive or was it reconstituted?

Pista! Jeff

 

[jwsleser]

In preparing another post for the forum I discovered an error I had made RE: XVI btg. «Pistoia». I had assumed that the «Pistoia» had been converted to a d.moto. and therefore believe there should have been a XVI btg. mtr. I now see that it was converted to a d.moto. tipo A.S., which is different from a d.moto. The tipo A.S. didn't have a btg. mtr., so the XVI btg. must be a btg. complemento as stated by Maurizio.

I still have questions about the CXVI btg.

Pista! Jeff

 

[jwsleser]

David

I just remembered your questions.

RE: CXVII. When was this unit raised? And when was it transferred to Tunisia please?

I can only offer a window. The brigade was authorized on 31 December 1942. On 10 January 1943 it had the CXVI btg. mtr. assigned. If the CXVI listed in the Mareth OB is the same unit, then it was in Tunisia by mid-March. Given that this was a motorized unit, I am wondering if the men had arrived (personnel were pretty much transported by air at this time), but the equipment/vehicles either hadn't arrived or had been lost in transport. That would be a logical reason why it was listed as infantry rather than machine gun.

Was there a LV Btg Mtr & LV Btg Complementi?

As a d.at. tipo A.S., it had a btg. complemento. This unit was at Mareth.

There was a LV btg. mtr. but it was destroyed at Beda Fomm. Battistelli (pp.335–336) states «Savona» had the VIII, then the CLV btg. mtr. While the CLV makes sense in terms of a replacement battalion for the lost LV, the VIII btg. mtr. doesn't track.

Pista! Jeff

 

[David Wormell]

Thanks Jeff.

 

[diciassette2000]

Jeff Which book by Battistelli....I know only one book by Battistelli published in Italy of 77 pages....thanks, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all... Maurizio

 

[diciassette2000]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year​

Something new for Jeff... where these should be inserted: 5th squadron group (machine gunners) Lancieri di Novara Arrived in AS at the end of November 1942 was used only in Tunisia. It was a machine gun squadron group composed as per command standard and 4 machine gun squadrons which in turn were each formed by a command platoon and 4 machine gun platoons in turn divided into 3 machine gun squads supplied by a Breda 35 machine gun. 6th Group of Squadrons (machine gunners) Lancers of Aosta It also arrived in AS in May 1940 and aggregated to the GAF as a machine gun department, it was placed as a garrison first in Tripoli and then in 1941 in the town of Benghazi. With the reconstitution of the 21st Army Corps he was then placed in command of that Great Unit and remained with it as far as Tunisia. He then also fought on that chessboard and was then repatriated shortly after about three years of stay in AS.

All the best
Maurizio

 

[diciassette2000]

In my humble opinion, the explanation of the transformation of the 16th complement battalion and the 116th machine-gun battalion into infantry battalions can be found on page 40 of the Messe where, verbatim, in the third paragraph, it speaks of the hypothetical transformation that never occurred of the Saharan Mannerini Group into the Savona division ( type AS 42). In the first lines it can be read verbatim "The transformation of the Saharan group into the Savona division had to take place according to the scheme of the AS division. An infantry regiment would have been formed with the 52nd special brigade and a regiment with the various battalions already in place. ....." therefore it is quite evident that battalions 16 (complements) and 116 (machine gunners) had already been transformed into AS type battalions or at least into infantry battalions by the end of February.....
all the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Good day Maurizio

We discussed the book here. https://comandosupremo.com/forums/index.php?threads/battistellis-mussolinis-army-at-war.1060/

Pista! Jeff

 

[jwsleser]

Buon Natale!

In my humble opinion, the explanation of the transformation of the 16th complement battalion and the 116th machine-gun battalion into infantry battalions can be found on page 40 of the Messe where,

That certainly can be correct. I would like to find a definitive statement that the btg. mtr. was converted. The 335º rgt. f. was to be part of that new division, but as was previously stated was converted to the 36º rgt. f. bis and the new division was never formed.

Do we know to which unit the 36º rgt.f. bis was assigned?

Pista! Jeff