M11/39 & Panzer IV Armor Comparison

[MelaraClubPrez]

I'm just placing these reports side by side to keep them together. I think the key note is the difference between early 2 pounder ammunition and later rounds.

Panzer IV (D) https://warspot.net/279-second-fiddle

M11/39 http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index...les/page__st__6780__pid__9278679#entry9278679 -Vollketten WoT Forums, pg.340,380 British intelligence Report on 'M.11 Medium Tank' March 1941 Description is taken from that obtained from 'G.S.1 and D.R' 2 pounder shell "shatters the plates rather than pierces them" with one shell "fired at 50 yards range went completely through the engine and engine compartment , out the other side and set fire to the tank" Tank is particularly prone to fire as the fuel tanks are astride the engine at the back. "The facts were confirmed in the recent engagement at Hileiqat [sorry spelling is unclear as to location, first three letters are hard to read] when our tanks found that the front armour of the M.11's was comparatively proof against their fire, but by maneuvering round the enemy flank were able to bring their fire to bear on the rear of the tanks with great effect. Five being destroyed and six damaged out of fifteen"  Boyes rifle fired at 150 yards will penetrate the sides and rear of the tank, and the front plates at 25m (20 degree impact)

 

[Dili]

Interesting, but the distance is crucial here. Due you have the armour values of both at hand?

 

[MelaraClubPrez]

Just what's in the articles for now.
The Panzer 4 (D) model originally had 30mm front turret iirc.

 

[MelaraClubPrez]

Armor values from warspot article, early panzer4:

It didn’t take long for the British to obtain their first trophies. A disabled Pz.Kpfw.IV tank was inspected in early May. The tank had 30 mm thick armour in the front of the hull and turret. The sides and commander’s cupola were 20 mm thick. The rear and roof were 10 mm thick. The front of the hull had a 30 mm thick applique plate attached and the sides were partially protected by 20 mm thick applique armour. The turret had no applique armour attached.

 

[MelaraClubPrez]

M11 armor layout from Pignato's Medium tanks in a tion or Storia. I'm not sure:

Fiat-Ansaldo M11/39

i would like to present you a very firm Rank 1 Italian tank. the Fiat-Ansaldo M11/39 The Fiat-Ansaldo M11/39, or just simply M11/39 was a medium tank mainly use by Italy during WW2 (with some other user who had captured those tank). the concept of the tank was to develop a Carro di Rottura (break...

forum.warthunder.com

Comment by Vollketten about the M11 report. Wot forums

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index...s/page__st__7940__pid__11500812#entry11500812

"after action report from Hilieqat by Aussie forces stated that the front armour was 'relatively proof' against British tank gun fire although when the armour was penetrated it tended to shatter. The British tank guns in question being 2 pounders."

 

[Dili]

Thanks, Seem similar to PZ III. Both with vertical plates.

 

[MelaraClubPrez]

For later reading:

2pdr penetration trials versus Panzer IVE

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/01/pziv-penetration-trials.html Interestingly, the article states that the British 2pdr in France 1940 was using only APHE, not solid AP. Despite the explosive filler of the APHE, it actually had less penetration than the AP shot. I do know from an Axis...

comandosupremo.com

A link to the axis history forum page.
2 pounder trials against pnz 4 and m13.

 

[MelaraClubPrez]

Pg.60 of that above AHF link

From Tom Jentz' “Tank Combat in North Africa: The Opening Rounds”, p44....

"Directly after the battle of Beda Fomm, _____________ conducted tests to determine the vulnerability of the Italian M. 13-40 tanks. They reported on 14 February 1941: During the morning tests were carried of the effect of the two types of 2-pounder ammunition on Italian M13 tanks. These tests proved that the yellow painted explosive armour piercing projectile penetrates the armour at 900 yards and bursts inside with very destructive effect. Sand bags placed on the crew's seats were well riddled with splinters. The black painted solid A.P. projectile also penetrates at 900 yards and causes large cracks in the armor"

" TWO important things to notice there; that TWO types of 2pdr AP ammunition were IN USE in the Western Desert in 1940-early 1941 - the black-painted solid "AP shot"....and the old yellow-painted "AP(HE)" was still in circulation and in use!"


Problem is it doesn't indicate if the penatration test was conducted against the frontal or side armor.