Posted 12 February 2011 - 10:59 PM by Dili
http://niehorster.or...trans_40as.html
Doc Niehorster gives 232 Heavy Machine gun to this formation. How he can get that number?
Posted 13 February 2011 - 10:38 AM by dicassette2000
The "Tabelle" of Regio Esercito are sometimes wrong or fill with some mistakes.....This numbers of heavy MG (232) its the official quote of
"Formazione di guerra della divisione autotrasportabile di fanteria tipo AS 1940" (TOE of autotrasportabile division Type AS 1940) from SME
(Stato Maggiore Esercito) of Regio Esercito. The subtotal (232) came from this ...... 25 MG (x2) from infantry regiments, 18 MG from artillery regiment,
92 Heavy MG from L3 Tank battalion (46 tank with two MG each) and 72 Heavy MG from MG battalion (Hq + 6 coy with 12 MG each). But in effect the tank
battalion never was organic to the divisions Type 1940 and the MG battalion never was at full TOE....so..........
All the best
Posted 13 February 2011 - 02:46 PM by Dili
Aha! Many thanks diciassette2000. So it seems they made the same rule w/ Celere (249 HMG) Corazzata (410 HMG). I just hope they didn't followed that with later TOE's.
Your numbers open another issue: 72 HMG in MG Battalion. Is this a reinforced battalion w/ 6xCo? i have 48 HMG in independent HMG battalions w/4 Co and 24 in independent motorised ("autocarrato").?
Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:20 PM by dicassette2000
Its a theoretical MG Battalion in effect never employed. It born from the idea that a AS division take combat like a ww1 division.....but in reality never was like this. In 1942 the Army Corps MG battalions were all
on Hq + 4 coys (48 HMG) Only some of the GAF MG battalions retained HQ+ 4/5 or 6 MG coys (12 HMG x coy)but they are strange units with its coys numbered that sometimes take combat detached from the battalion. Since 1942 some divisions retained also the motorized MG battalion "autocarrato" (metropolitan autotrasportabile divisions but their TOE was Hq + 3 coys 8 x 3 heavy MG). The 1940 TOEs table for divisione autotrasportabile or corazzata are an also very very theoretical TOEs table . On field no one celere or corazzata divisions have these TOE..........italian mistery..........
all the best
Maurizio
Posted 13 February 2011 - 09:32 PM by Dili
Thanks.
I have for 1 June 1940 an Alegatto w/ 1293 HMG's for XX corps only. With just 3 Divisions how that numbers could be achieved? Would an alegatto include the L3 tankettes machine guns in it?
Even then i can only understand this number if the GAF and Lybian machine guns battalions were included in it. Zuara and Nalut had 7 Battalions machine guns in them, there was also 2 Squadron MG's plus eventualy 2 MG companies in Tripoli.
With 1173 Machine guns in XXI Corps it is even more difficult to find where they came from.
Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:35 PM by dicassette2000
dont know what kind of "allegato" you have but its clear that italian SME add all the possible HMG (also the tanks HMG, the defense HMG of the artillery units and also the AA HMG) in all the subtotals........
At 1st june 1940 the 21.o CA have:
-21.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti
-21.o Raggruppamento genio di Corpo d’Armata with:
--21.o battaglione speciale artieri
--21.o battaglione collegamenti
--21.a colombaia mobile
--21.a compagnia chimica
-21.o battaglione carri L3/35
-21.o Raggruppamento d'Artiglieria di Corpo d'Armata with:
--I/21 Gruppo da 105/28 (12 pezzi da 105/28)
--II/21 Gruppo da 105/28 (12 pezzi da 105/28)
--III/21 Gruppo da 75/27-906 (12 pezzi da 75/27-906)
--IV/21 Gruppo da 75/27-906 (12 pezzi da 75/27-906)
--13/21 Batteria da 20/65 antiaerea (8 pezzi da 20/65)
--14/21 Batteria da 20/65 antiaerea (8 pezzi da 20/65)
--21.o gruppo contraereo da 75/27 CK
--21.o Reparto Specialisti di CA
-Divisione di fanteria Marmarica
-Divisione di fanteria Cirene
Its very very difficoult .....find 1173 Machine guns ??????????
a second italian mistery??????!!!!
Probabily its add all the GAF sector attached to it??????!!!!
All the best
Maurizio
Posted 14 February 2011 - 02:23 PM by Dili
The allegato is this. I think they had to put the GAF units inside Corps to get that numbers. See how Armata level is reduced to almost nothing.
http://niehorster.or...trans_40as.html
Doc Niehorster gives 232 Heavy Machine gun to this formation. How he can get that number?
Posted 13 February 2011 - 10:38 AM by dicassette2000
The "Tabelle" of Regio Esercito are sometimes wrong or fill with some mistakes.....This numbers of heavy MG (232) its the official quote of
"Formazione di guerra della divisione autotrasportabile di fanteria tipo AS 1940" (TOE of autotrasportabile division Type AS 1940) from SME
(Stato Maggiore Esercito) of Regio Esercito. The subtotal (232) came from this ...... 25 MG (x2) from infantry regiments, 18 MG from artillery regiment,
92 Heavy MG from L3 Tank battalion (46 tank with two MG each) and 72 Heavy MG from MG battalion (Hq + 6 coy with 12 MG each). But in effect the tank
battalion never was organic to the divisions Type 1940 and the MG battalion never was at full TOE....so..........
All the best
Posted 13 February 2011 - 02:46 PM by Dili
Aha! Many thanks diciassette2000. So it seems they made the same rule w/ Celere (249 HMG) Corazzata (410 HMG). I just hope they didn't followed that with later TOE's.
Your numbers open another issue: 72 HMG in MG Battalion. Is this a reinforced battalion w/ 6xCo? i have 48 HMG in independent HMG battalions w/4 Co and 24 in independent motorised ("autocarrato").?
Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:20 PM by dicassette2000
Its a theoretical MG Battalion in effect never employed. It born from the idea that a AS division take combat like a ww1 division.....but in reality never was like this. In 1942 the Army Corps MG battalions were all
on Hq + 4 coys (48 HMG) Only some of the GAF MG battalions retained HQ+ 4/5 or 6 MG coys (12 HMG x coy)but they are strange units with its coys numbered that sometimes take combat detached from the battalion. Since 1942 some divisions retained also the motorized MG battalion "autocarrato" (metropolitan autotrasportabile divisions but their TOE was Hq + 3 coys 8 x 3 heavy MG). The 1940 TOEs table for divisione autotrasportabile or corazzata are an also very very theoretical TOEs table . On field no one celere or corazzata divisions have these TOE..........italian mistery..........
all the best
Maurizio
Posted 13 February 2011 - 09:32 PM by Dili
Thanks.
I have for 1 June 1940 an Alegatto w/ 1293 HMG's for XX corps only. With just 3 Divisions how that numbers could be achieved? Would an alegatto include the L3 tankettes machine guns in it?
Even then i can only understand this number if the GAF and Lybian machine guns battalions were included in it. Zuara and Nalut had 7 Battalions machine guns in them, there was also 2 Squadron MG's plus eventualy 2 MG companies in Tripoli.
With 1173 Machine guns in XXI Corps it is even more difficult to find where they came from.
Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:35 PM by dicassette2000
dont know what kind of "allegato" you have but its clear that italian SME add all the possible HMG (also the tanks HMG, the defense HMG of the artillery units and also the AA HMG) in all the subtotals........
At 1st june 1940 the 21.o CA have:
-21.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti
-21.o Raggruppamento genio di Corpo d’Armata with:
--21.o battaglione speciale artieri
--21.o battaglione collegamenti
--21.a colombaia mobile
--21.a compagnia chimica
-21.o battaglione carri L3/35
-21.o Raggruppamento d'Artiglieria di Corpo d'Armata with:
--I/21 Gruppo da 105/28 (12 pezzi da 105/28)
--II/21 Gruppo da 105/28 (12 pezzi da 105/28)
--III/21 Gruppo da 75/27-906 (12 pezzi da 75/27-906)
--IV/21 Gruppo da 75/27-906 (12 pezzi da 75/27-906)
--13/21 Batteria da 20/65 antiaerea (8 pezzi da 20/65)
--14/21 Batteria da 20/65 antiaerea (8 pezzi da 20/65)
--21.o gruppo contraereo da 75/27 CK
--21.o Reparto Specialisti di CA
-Divisione di fanteria Marmarica
-Divisione di fanteria Cirene
Its very very difficoult .....find 1173 Machine guns ??????????
a second italian mistery??????!!!!
Probabily its add all the GAF sector attached to it??????!!!!
All the best
Maurizio
Posted 14 February 2011 - 02:23 PM by Dili
The allegato is this. I think they had to put the GAF units inside Corps to get that numbers. See how Armata level is reduced to almost nothing.
