Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:04 AM by antonio
I am a little bit confused with the difference between the Battaglione Mitraglieri (MG Battalions) and the Armi d'accompagnamento (maybe weapons battalion).
In Spanish army at the time of Spanish Civil War there were units called "armas de acompañamiento" the same expression as in italian but these were mostly MG and mortars. In Italian TOE I see that the normal infantry division in Europe had a mortar battalion but not in Africa.
My questions are:
what were exactly those battaglioni di armi d'accompagnamento AC/CA.?
Were different from Mitraglieri battaglioni.?
How many (mitraglieri and armi d'accomp)of them were in North Africa?
Were organic to divisions or attached to army corps?
In some web pages I see that some divisions in Africa had MG battalions but AFAIK that is no correct.
Cheers
Posted 08 April 2005 - 11:26 AM by david
Antonio.
I can't be a great deal of help I'm afraid.
But I am as keen as you, to hear the answers.
This seems to have been common practice in N.Africa in 1940. But very few examples (if any) of it ocurring after the disasters of Jan 1941.
Posted 08 April 2005 - 05:10 PM by Lupo Solitario
try to make a bit of order...
In WWII italian army MG battalions were Corps assets, they were equipped only with HMG
Mortar battalions are included in standard infantry division 1940 TO&E; but not in North Africa Autotrasportabile division 1940 TO&E;
I ignore exact composition of support weapon battalions but they were formed only after 1941 and included 47mm and 20mm gun. I believe they had to be attached to infantry regiments but it's always difficult finding general rules in WWII italian army in NA
Posted 09 April 2005 - 08:27 AM by antonio
Thanks a lot Lupo.
From your answer it seems that it is a long distance between the theory and the reality in Italian Army.
I have found a CLV battaglione mitraglieri in 55th Bologna Division, so I assume it was an attached unit and not organic. right?.
I have also found DVIII battaglioni AA.AC in Trieste division and DLI batg AA.AC in Trento Division in december 1941. Could you tell me when they arrived to North Africa?
Best regards
Antonio
Posted 09 April 2005 - 10:15 AM by david
It's 25th Divisione Bologna. But I have no record of a CLV Battaglione, so I will be interested in what Lupo has to say.
The only AA.AC Gruppos in N. Africa were.....................
XXIX in III Gruppo 1st Celere Regiment. Which spent most of their time in Tripoli from about Dec 1940, until being co-opted into Divisione Littorio in about 09/42.
XVIII also from 1st Celere Regiment. Arrived Tripoli somewhen in 1940. Co-opted into Divisione Ariete in 05/42, where it was sometimes known as V Gruppo.
DII C.A/C.C Gruppo. Arrived Spring 1942.
DI C.A/C.C Gruppo. (aka IV Gruppo) Divisione Ariete in May 1942.
I am not aware of either CLV or DLI Battaglione/Gruppo & doubt their authenticity. But I am always glad to be proved wrong in such matters if it promotes the truth.
Posted 09 April 2005 - 11:06 AM by antonio
Hi david, thanks for your reply.
I made a mistake. I was referring to 55th Savona not 25th Bologna.
Regarding DVII or DVIII Battaglione and DLI my sources are:
http://digilander.libero.it/lacorsainfi ... anovra.htm
http://utenti.lycos....amius/Militaria
(La campagna in Cirenaica de 1941)
Maybe there are some errorr or typos.
In one of those places mentions DLI batt mitraglieri, but since in aprevious post was said that mitraglieri batt were numbered 100- I assumed it was an error and I supposed it was referring to AA.AC. (My fault).
If those numbers ever existed in Africa what could they be?
No mitraglieri, no AA.AC, no mortars
Regards
Antonio
Posted 10 April 2005 - 12:57 PM by Franco
The mg btln was standard for infantry division AS 1940 TOE.
Posted 11 April 2005 - 04:14 PM by antonio
Franco, you are right. According to Leo Niehorster in Pavia, Brescia Savona, and Bologna should be a MG battalion.
My question is what happened with them. Were they destroyed before Crusader during or after Crusader operation or were just dissolved.?
According to the Leo Niehorster Orbat for october 1942 there was a 25th MG battalion in Tripolitania. Was this the original battalion that belonged to 25th Bologna division?
Cheers
Antonio
I am a little bit confused with the difference between the Battaglione Mitraglieri (MG Battalions) and the Armi d'accompagnamento (maybe weapons battalion).
In Spanish army at the time of Spanish Civil War there were units called "armas de acompañamiento" the same expression as in italian but these were mostly MG and mortars. In Italian TOE I see that the normal infantry division in Europe had a mortar battalion but not in Africa.
My questions are:
what were exactly those battaglioni di armi d'accompagnamento AC/CA.?
Were different from Mitraglieri battaglioni.?
How many (mitraglieri and armi d'accomp)of them were in North Africa?
Were organic to divisions or attached to army corps?
In some web pages I see that some divisions in Africa had MG battalions but AFAIK that is no correct.
Cheers
Posted 08 April 2005 - 11:26 AM by david
Antonio.
I can't be a great deal of help I'm afraid.
But I am as keen as you, to hear the answers.
In some web pages I see that some divisions in Africa had MG battalions but AFAIK that is no correct
This seems to have been common practice in N.Africa in 1940. But very few examples (if any) of it ocurring after the disasters of Jan 1941.
Posted 08 April 2005 - 05:10 PM by Lupo Solitario
try to make a bit of order...
In WWII italian army MG battalions were Corps assets, they were equipped only with HMG
Mortar battalions are included in standard infantry division 1940 TO&E; but not in North Africa Autotrasportabile division 1940 TO&E;
I ignore exact composition of support weapon battalions but they were formed only after 1941 and included 47mm and 20mm gun. I believe they had to be attached to infantry regiments but it's always difficult finding general rules in WWII italian army in NA
Posted 09 April 2005 - 08:27 AM by antonio
Thanks a lot Lupo.
From your answer it seems that it is a long distance between the theory and the reality in Italian Army.
I have found a CLV battaglione mitraglieri in 55th Bologna Division, so I assume it was an attached unit and not organic. right?.
I have also found DVIII battaglioni AA.AC in Trieste division and DLI batg AA.AC in Trento Division in december 1941. Could you tell me when they arrived to North Africa?
Best regards
Antonio
Posted 09 April 2005 - 10:15 AM by david
I have found a CLV battaglione mitraglieri in 55th Bologna Division, so I assume it was an attached unit and not organic. right?.
It's 25th Divisione Bologna. But I have no record of a CLV Battaglione, so I will be interested in what Lupo has to say.
I have also found DVIII battaglioni AA.AC in Trieste division and DLI batg AA.AC in Trento Division in december 1941. Could you tell me when they arrived to North Africa?
The only AA.AC Gruppos in N. Africa were.....................
XXIX in III Gruppo 1st Celere Regiment. Which spent most of their time in Tripoli from about Dec 1940, until being co-opted into Divisione Littorio in about 09/42.
XVIII also from 1st Celere Regiment. Arrived Tripoli somewhen in 1940. Co-opted into Divisione Ariete in 05/42, where it was sometimes known as V Gruppo.
DII C.A/C.C Gruppo. Arrived Spring 1942.
DI C.A/C.C Gruppo. (aka IV Gruppo) Divisione Ariete in May 1942.
I am not aware of either CLV or DLI Battaglione/Gruppo & doubt their authenticity. But I am always glad to be proved wrong in such matters if it promotes the truth.
Posted 09 April 2005 - 11:06 AM by antonio
Hi david, thanks for your reply.
It's 25th Divisione Bologna. But I have no record of a CLV Battaglione, so I will be interested in what Lupohas to say.
I made a mistake. I was referring to 55th Savona not 25th Bologna.
Regarding DVII or DVIII Battaglione and DLI my sources are:
http://digilander.libero.it/lacorsainfi ... anovra.htm
http://utenti.lycos....amius/Militaria
(La campagna in Cirenaica de 1941)
Maybe there are some errorr or typos.
In one of those places mentions DLI batt mitraglieri, but since in aprevious post was said that mitraglieri batt were numbered 100- I assumed it was an error and I supposed it was referring to AA.AC. (My fault).
If those numbers ever existed in Africa what could they be?
No mitraglieri, no AA.AC, no mortars
Regards
Antonio
Posted 10 April 2005 - 12:57 PM by Franco
The mg btln was standard for infantry division AS 1940 TOE.
Posted 11 April 2005 - 04:14 PM by antonio
Franco, you are right. According to Leo Niehorster in Pavia, Brescia Savona, and Bologna should be a MG battalion.
My question is what happened with them. Were they destroyed before Crusader during or after Crusader operation or were just dissolved.?
According to the Leo Niehorster Orbat for october 1942 there was a 25th MG battalion in Tripolitania. Was this the original battalion that belonged to 25th Bologna division?
Cheers
Antonio