Motorcycle Units 1940-1941

[jwsleser]

Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:03 PM by nmao

Hello!

Trying to make sense of my notes. it seems i have almost no idea how many (bersaglieri) companies were in Libya.

This is one possible list (full of errors i'm sure):
21st (XXI corps)
22nd (XXII corps)
201st
202nd
203rd
60th (Sabratha?)
61st
others?

later three formed a provisional bersaglieri m/c bn for the Brigata Coazzata Speciale (60th, 201st and 202nd coys)

Can anyone help?

thanks,

-Nuno Oliveira

Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:31 PM by Dili

I only have 201,202,203 but i have not made much search in that topic.


PS:i'm interested in the period June 1940-February 1941 (excludes Ariete, etc.)

Posted 09 March 2012 - 03:15 PM by nmao

I'm going to reply to my own topic

XXIII (23) Corps (CCNN) has 23.a Squadriglia Autoblindo (no motociclisti there)
XXII (22) Corps i've seen some references to 22.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti
XXI (21) Corps i have 21.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti

Sabratha - 60th Bersaglieri m/c coy (did it exist or only planned?)
Sirte division - 61st Bersaglieri m/c coy (did it exist or only planned?)
Cirene - i've never seen an hypothetical 62nd...
Catanzaro - very doubtful since its late constitution and weaker equipment (no L3 bat, etc)

201, 202 and 203 Bersaglieri m/c coy (independent units?, the numbers remind of CCNN units...)

provisional bersaglieri m/c bn for the Brigata Coazzata Speciale (60th, 201st and 202nd coys)

I believe these are all the references i could find... maybe there was some renumbering?
Did they exist in June 1940? Any reinforcements during this period?

in this site:
http://xoomer.virgil...iugno_1940.html
is listed a total of 3 Compagnie Bersaglieri Motociclisti

any help is appreciated

thanks.

-Nuno Oliveira

Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:57 PM by Dili

I have 201,202,203 as the Corps Motociclisti recon.

Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:32 PM by david

OK. Let's see if my input helps, or just "muddies the water"!

21. Yes, With 21 Corpo.
22. Yes, With 22 Corpo.

60. Yes, But I can't place it until November 1940 with Provisional Bersaglieri Battalion.
61. ???
62. ???
63. ???
64. Yes (see 3 posts below)
201. Yes, But I can't place it until November 1940 with Provisional Bersaglieri Battalion.
202. Yes, But I can't place it until November 1940 with Provisional Bersaglieri Battalion.
203. Yes (Although I didn't have it, others did)
6x Compagnia. 3 within XXV Battalion, 10th Regiment. & 3 within XVI Battalion, 10th Regiment.

Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:17 PM by Dili

I have 10th Regiment as ciclisti and was in Italy- Sicily until September 40. It is motorized in meantime and arrives in Africa about that time.

Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:16 AM by david

Dili.

In my notes, I have the 10th as in North Africa before 10th June 1940. It would appear that my notes are wrong!

Also, can anyone confirm or deny the existence of 61st, 62nd, 63rd?

Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:48 PM by dicassette2000

Hi

Catanzaro division have its motorcicle coy (64???? in official documents stated with "Catanzaro motorcicle coy"). On 1st december 1940 its was at Bir Oasi, on 9-10 december 1940 it was with 1st "Scaglione" (HQ Force), on 11/12/1940 (going Sollum) with 3rd "Scaglione", on 11/12/1940 (Bir Tishida battle) divisional "Fronte sud", lost on this battle......
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:16 AM by david

I have seen a 2nd Compagnia Bersaglieri Motorcyclisti listed as a XX Corpo asset.
I wonder if this is true, or just a typo?

As a reminder, we are still seeking confirmation for 61st, 62nd & 63rd Compagnia.

Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:45 AM by david

Anyone got anything on the 2nd Compagnia with XX Corpo?

Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:30 PM by dicassette2000

No 2nd motorcicle coy never assigned to this Corp...phreaps 2.a compagnia of one bersaglieri battalion assigned to it that despached it's
2nd (moto) coys to Corp Hq????????
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 23 September 2013 - 07:12 PM by david

I am also looking for the location on 10th June 1940 for the following Compagnia Bersaglieri Motorcyclisti......

21st
22nd
23rd
203rd

Thanks.

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 24 September 2013 - 12:15 PM by dicassette2000

The 23rd moto coy disembark at Bengasi 1st august 1940. The 200 moto coys series (201,202,203) are difficoult to place....someone (italian historist) says that are moto coys born for CCNN divisions
that are afetr utilized to army corps HQ...Others says that the suffixed 200 are put in existence after june 1940 for "duplicated" the 21st, 22nd and 23rd moto coys (a common pratice of
regio Esercito was that of "duplicated" units with 100,200 and 300 or 400 suffix....... Of the 21st and 22nd I dont have notice but they was usually with Corp Hq.....
ALl the best
Maurizio

Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:07 AM by voloire

XXII Coy: unit detached from 5° Rgt (Greece) - Arrived in NA on august 1940; destroyed on Beda Fomm at feb 7th 1941.

then I have:
XVII coy : detached from 6° Rgt - in NA since june 1940 assigned to 8° Rgt - dismembred in january 1941
III coy: detached from 3° Rgt - CA unit

BTW: it's not easy to locate and follow the moto coys because of often they was "scatteder" trough the Commands as recon units, estafettes and so on...

Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:16 AM by dicassette2000

Voloire...the 22nd bersaglieri moto coy was destroyed at Tobruk not at Beda Fomm but phreaps came from 5th bersaglieri regiments....???
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:38 AM by david

Thanks guys.

Questions.

Voloire, XXII Co; arrives at Benghasi?

III co was with 8th Reg in N.A wasn't it?

What does dismembered mean in relation to XVII co?

Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:42 AM by voloire

Voloire...the 22nd bersaglieri moto coy was destroyed at Tobruk not at Beda Fomm but perhaps came from 5th bersaglieri regiments....???

my mistake ! not 5° but 6°
for Beda Fomm:

http://www.regioeser...ia/recdacor.htm

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:05 PM by dicassette2000

The 6th reggimento bersaglieri mobilized the 17th bersaglieri coy (for divisione autotrasportabile tipo AS Pavia) and not 22........Also the list (in deutch) in Regio Esercito site were a very very amount of material errors (in the sezione autoblindo PAI at Beda Fomm NOT WERE AB40, at Beda Fomm NOT WERE M11/39 and so on).....page 183 La prima offensiva britannica in AS (SME ufficio storico Roma)....veniva formata una piccola unità celere come riserva della piazza(Tobruk): 2 compagnie motociclisti (22.a e 61.a)......

All the best
Maurizio

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:42 PM by david

Did the 17th Compagnia Bersaglieri ever serve with Divisione Autotrasportabile Tipo AS Pavia?
I've never seen it listed.

Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:41 PM by Dili

Questions.
Voloire, XXII Co; arrives at Benghasi?
III co was with 8th Reg in N.A wasn't it?
What does dismembered mean in relation to XVII co?

Means disbanded. Its elements sent to other units.

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:04 AM by dicassette2000

Dili the question 1940 bersaglieri motor coys it's a very very hard theme......also for the italian officially books and historian.....At the start of the war the AS autotrasportabile division TOe and also the Corpo d'Armata TOE (italian) says that for a moto coy.....At this time in Italy the only motorcoy were raised from bersaglieri and so at the start of the war all bersaglieri regiment mobilized a moto coy (or two) for this purpose.... the difficult it's can know how regiment raised what coys????? No report for this matter are now readable and the little bit in existence it's an hodgepodge..... The 6th regiment it's one of the regiment that certainly raised the 17.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti (for Pavia division) that were in AS from june 1940. The coy was trasferred from 5.a armata to 10.a and dismembered in platoons that fought with many units (separated) also with Maletti column and so destroyed and never reformed....

Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:19 PM by dicassette2000

Only a note.....in april 1941 OOB of Regio esercito (AS) not WAS THE 22 MOTO COY (but only parts of 201 and 202) then i suppose that the 22 Coy with Ariete (8.o bersaglieri) its a typo of 2.a compagnia motomitraglieri (of 8.o reggimento bersaglieri).......
Al the best
Maurizio

Posted 02 November 2013 - 10:27 AM by david

Does anyone have a Tabelle Organiche for a Compagnia Bersaglieri Motorcyclisti?

Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:15 PM by Dili

Cp. Bersaglieri motociclisti indipendenti(1940) <--- i have some doubts about this being in 1940 with AT gun and AT rifle. Maybe later in the year...

Plotone comando (1 moto, 1 auto),
squadra comando (6 moto, 1 camion),
squadra radio (2 camion leggeri),
squadra servizio (3 camion)
1° plotone motociclisti: plotone comando con 4 moto ed un camion leggero +(4 squadre ciascuna su 5 moto ed 1 sidecar)
2° plotone motociclisti: plotone comando con 3 moto ed 1 camion +(4 squadre ciascuna con 4 moto ed un sidecar)
3° plotone anticarro:su comando con 1 moto, (4 squadre anticarro ognuna con 1 fucilione AT ed un camion)
4° plotone anticarro:su moto, 1 camion portamunizioni (4 squadre ognuna con 1 cannone anticarro ed 1 camion)
5° plotone con funzioni aa: plotone comando + (3 squadre mitraglieri ognuna con 1 mitragliatrice pesante ed un camion.)


Cp. Bersaglieri motociclisti (1940)
Plotone comando 23 uomini,
Subunits:
3 Plotoni moto (each w/ 4 squadre each (da 6 uomini) con un fucile mitragliatore ciascuno)
1 Plotone moto Mitr. (4 squadre da 9 uomini each con una mitragliatrice(pesante)
in all: 28 moto monoposto, 44 moto biposto(probably side car), 9 carrelli, 4 autocarri, 2 radio, 133 uomini 12 FM(6 men squad), 4 HMG(9 men squad)

Posted 09 August 2014 - 06:47 AM by david

The 201o & 202o compagnia both show up in the HQ of 8th Reggimento Bersaglieri. 132nd Divisione ARIETE in April 1941.

Having been originally part of Provisional Battaglione Bersaglieri Motorcyclisti in November 1940.

Posted 09 August 2014 - 10:24 AM by dicassette2000

In April 1941 the survivors of 201.a e 202.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti and of 10.o reggimento bersaglieri were part of the Raggruppamento Sabratha at Tripoli.....After the disembark of Ariete division they came with the division and were absorbed later from it......The 202.a compagnia motociclisti in november 1940 were part of two Nuclei Esploranti Raggruppamento motorizzato divisione Sabratha with a section of 4.a and a section of 46.a 20mm AA battery. The 201.a compagnia motociclisti phreaps go to Retroguardia Libia Orientale and was engaged at Beda Fomm......
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 09 February 2015 - 08:43 AM by david

Can anyone place 201o & 202o Compagnia on 10th June 1940?

I know that they were in North Africa, but I don't know where.

Thanks.

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 12 September 2015 - 02:32 PM by jwsleser

Given that each divisione tipo A.S. should have a cp. motociclisti, I would expect to find the following cp.:

10, 17, 25, 27, 55, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 201, 202, 203, 204

One cp. per each corps:

X, XX, XXI, XXII, XXIII

Anyone have a book with the info on the btg. motociclisti with the brigata corazzata?

Pista! Jeff