Byron posted on 24 February 2009
Hello,
I couldn't find complete information in any of the other "Crusader" topics on this. Does anyone know the exact makeup of forces for the battle of Bir el Gubi? I have the following:
British: 158 Crusader AFV
Italian: 146 M 13/40, 7th Bersaglieri Battalion, 132nd Artillery Regiment (2 Group)
I have no data on the number and types of guns in the artillery regiment or the Bersaglieri Battalion (I believe there was more than one Bersaglieri battalion present as well). Were there any light tanks involved in this battle? I have reference to both 75mm and 105mm guns in the artillery regiment. Is this accurate? I appreciate any help provided to fill in this data!
Andreas posted on 24 February 2009
British 22nd Armoured Brigade, part of 7th Armoured Division, Brigade CO Brigadier Scott-Cockburn
Order of battle at Bir el Gobi:
11th Hussars (armoured car regiment)
2nd Royal Gloucestershire Hussars
3rd County of London Yeomanry
4th County of London Yeomanry
All of the three above cruiser equipped (should all be Crusader, 158 in total) yeomanry tank regiments in their first action ever.
8x 25pdr from 4th Royal Horse Artillery
1x Infantry Company from 1st Kings Royal Rifle Corps
AT detachment (no unit information, probably a battery from 102nd Royal Horse Artillery)
Light AA detachment (no unit information, probably a battery or troop from 1st LAA Rgt RA)
Detachment 4th Field Squadron Royal Engineers
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paters ... tm#Nov1941
All the best
Andreas
Byron posted on 24 February 2009
Thanks Andreas!
Do you have any details on the armored car type(s) and number in the AC regiment?
I had read somewhere that there was an infantry company and artillery (25 pndr) present. I take it the towed ATGs were 40mm? That would make sense during this timeframe.
Any detailed information on the Italian units available?
Andreas posted on 24 February 2009
The towed ATGs definitely 2-pdr (although probably not towed but portee'd). The LAA guns Bofors 40mm. The armoured cars... No idea. Probably Marmon-Herringtons of South-African manufacture.
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paters ... edcars.htm
All the best
Andreas
david posted on 26 February 2009
The 11th Hussars had had their Marmon Herringtons replaced by Humber MkII s by late October of 1941.
There should have been a total of 61 in a full strength Regiment.
Jeff Leser posted on 26 February 2009
Italian Forces at Bir el-Gobi (from Montanari)
Ariete Armored Division
132° reggimento carri medi
VII° battaglione carri M13/40
VIII° battaglione carri M13/40
IX° battaglione carri M13/40
8° reggimento bersaglieri
V/8° battaglioni bersaglieri
XII/8°battaglioni bersaglieri
battaglione armi accompagnamento
battaglione controcarri (47/32)
132° reggimento artiglieria
I/132° artiglieria (75/27)
II/132°artiglieria (75/27)
1 gruppo/3° Celere artiglieri (75/27)
1 gruppo/24° artiglieria d’armata (105/28)
MILMART (seven 102mm guns)
Pista!
Jeff
david posted on 26 February 2009
Jeff.
The I & II Gruppi 132 Artiglieria Reggimento should be on 75/27, not 75/18. Agreed?
Do we know which was the battaglione Controcarri?
David
Jeff Leser posted on 26 February 2009
You are most certainly correct. I was using the OB for the Ariete found in Seconda offensiva Britannica in Africa Settentrionale e ripiegamento Italo-Tedesco nella sirtica orientale (pages 176-178). I just copied the information for the units identified at Bir el-Gobi in Le operazioni in Africa Settentriontale vol II, as that volume doesn't provide as detailed an OB as the earlier volume. As our Italian members have pointed out, the earlier official books have their flaws.
I have corrected my post.
Pista!
Jeff
david posted on 26 February 2009
Jeff.
Any idea on which Controcarri Battaglione it was?
Dili posted on 26 February 2009
What would be the TOE quantities of this two units:
I am mainly looking for the weapons.
battaglione armi accompagnamento
battaglione controcarri (47/32)
Thanks
david posted on 26 February 2009
The Battaglione a.a. was formerly III Battaglione Bersaglieri (M/C).
As a Battaglione a.a. it was comprised of.....
1x Compagnia c.a. of 8 x 20mm Breda mod35 L/65. (Although shortages of this weapon often meant that only 6 were allocated).
1x Compagnia Mitraglieri of 12 x 8mm medium M/G.
1x Compagnia mortai of 9 x 81mm mortars. (Can someone please confirm that 9 is correct, as I only have it pencilled in.)
byron posted on 26 February 2009
This is the kind of stuff I was looking for guys! Thanks!
Question: Did the Bersaglieri battalions have ATGs included in their TO&E; or did they only use the ones from the "battaglione controcarri" (which I think is an ATG battalion)? I only ask because I know the Italians were often short of ATGs throughout the conflict.
david posted on 26 February 2009
Which Bersag Batt?
When?
& yes it is!
byron posted on 27 February 2009
I'm only talking Bir el Gubi here! I know the 7th BB was there...not sure if others were present as well.
Jeff Leser posted on 27 February 2009
byron
The VII (7th) btg. bersaglieri was not at Bir el-Gobi. The VII btg. is part of the 1° reggimento bersaglieri that was assigned to the 1° Celere Division. The 7° reggimento bersaglieri was assigned to the Trento Division. It appears your information is from Iron Hull, Iron Hearts. That book is incorrect in placing that battalion at this battle.
I am currently working through the c.c situation. If all units were present, the Ariete should have one c.c. battery in each bersaglieri btg., and two c.c. companies in the c.c. btg., for a total of 32 guns. The acc. e c.a. btg. didn't have c.c. units.
During this time, all the units in A.S. were being transformed to the A.S. organization. Montanari (page 314) has an explanation and chart on how the artillery would be modified/upgraded in A.S. (a combination of transfers between divisions and new units arriving from Italy). What this means is that the units were influx at this time, so the standard OOB of the unit likely doesn't apply.
None of my sources provides a detailed OOB for the battle. Montanari describes the units in terms of their battle positions. As I noted, Iron Hulls has significant problems in the details. So this OOB remains a work in progress.
Pista!
Jeff
david posted on 28 February 2009
Agreed!
Jeff. What designation did Ariete's c.c Battaglione use at this time? And do you know the component Compagnia numbers please?
byron posted on 28 February 2009
More information I've dug up:
The 8th Bersaglieri Regiment apparently was present. The 5th battalion, supported by II/132 artillery (75/27), was near El Cuasc.
The 3rd Battalion, supported by guns of the 3rd Artillery (75/27) was East of the ridge.
The 12th Battalion, supported by the I/132 artillery was to the West.
To the North was the 24th Artillery (105/28 guns) and the seven 102mm truck mounted guns of the Milmart.
Further North was the 132 tank regiment.
Most of the artillery's guns were the 75/27 variety, I think. The exception was the 24th.
Does anyone know how many guns were included in the the 1/132 and II/132 artillery groups? What about the 3rd and 24th?
The ATGs of the batt controcarri appear to have been mixed throughout the formations as were the supporting units of the batt. armi accomp.
byron.
david posted on 28 February 2009
I gruppo 132 Art Reg had 3 batteries of 4 x 75/27 each.
II Gruppo 132 Art Reg was the same as I Gruppo.
III Guppo did not exist. The I/24 Gruppo of 12 x 105/28 is sometimes mistakenly reported as IIIGr/132.
The II/24 was attached to Divisione Pavia, in much the same way that the 1/24 was with Ariete. perhaps the 3rd artillery you mention is not even meant to be a part of Ariete? Let me know.
Jeff Leser posted on 27 February 2009
byron
The information you have provided is straight from Montanari vol II (pages 413-414). It proves that one shouldn't read a foreign language when they are tired. I wondered if the III btg. bersaglieri was present and there it is in black and white. I kept reading il instead of III. My bad.
The III btg bersaglieri was east of the triple crossroads (est del trivio), not the ridge. What this means is the III/8° bersaglieri has not been converted to a btg. acc. e c.a. as it is holding its own position and not broken up to support the other two battalions. So the III/8° bersaglieri is still an infantry unit. If the III btg. was originally a motorcycle unit, it wouldn't have a c.c company. This implies only two c.c. companies and sixteen 47/32 c.c.
David
Given this, I don't believe the btg. c.c had been established. I have attached the OOB from Seconda offensiva (allegato 2). As you can read, several units are marked mancante (lacking/missing). Also note the 75/18s shown in the artillery regiment (one missing). Note how the term mancante is positioned to indicate the unit. As the word is not placed next to the c.c. btg. itself, but the btg. HQ, I have been puzzled whether this means the entire btg. is missing or just the HQ. As I haven't found a total number of 47/32 present, I have not been able to pin down the number of c.c companies persent.
I have also attached the artillery reorganization from Montanari page 314. This was ordered in September 41, but how much of this was accomplished before November?
Okay, I am still working the few sources I have to see if I can pin this down. I swear I have an article somewhere on this battle. I guess it is to the filing cabinet downstairs.
Pista!
Jeff
[I will rescan the files that were originally attached. There is more to post tomorrow]
Hello,
I couldn't find complete information in any of the other "Crusader" topics on this. Does anyone know the exact makeup of forces for the battle of Bir el Gubi? I have the following:
British: 158 Crusader AFV
Italian: 146 M 13/40, 7th Bersaglieri Battalion, 132nd Artillery Regiment (2 Group)
I have no data on the number and types of guns in the artillery regiment or the Bersaglieri Battalion (I believe there was more than one Bersaglieri battalion present as well). Were there any light tanks involved in this battle? I have reference to both 75mm and 105mm guns in the artillery regiment. Is this accurate? I appreciate any help provided to fill in this data!
Andreas posted on 24 February 2009
British 22nd Armoured Brigade, part of 7th Armoured Division, Brigade CO Brigadier Scott-Cockburn
Biography of Brigadier John Scott-Cockburn (1891 – 1979), Great Britain
This is a brief biographical sketch of the military career of Brigadier John Scott-Cockburn. He was a general during World War Two.
generals.dk
Order of battle at Bir el Gobi:
11th Hussars (armoured car regiment)
2nd Royal Gloucestershire Hussars
3rd County of London Yeomanry
4th County of London Yeomanry
All of the three above cruiser equipped (should all be Crusader, 158 in total) yeomanry tank regiments in their first action ever.
8x 25pdr from 4th Royal Horse Artillery
1x Infantry Company from 1st Kings Royal Rifle Corps
AT detachment (no unit information, probably a battery from 102nd Royal Horse Artillery)
Light AA detachment (no unit information, probably a battery or troop from 1st LAA Rgt RA)
Detachment 4th Field Squadron Royal Engineers
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paters ... tm#Nov1941
All the best
Andreas
Byron posted on 24 February 2009
Thanks Andreas!
Do you have any details on the armored car type(s) and number in the AC regiment?
I had read somewhere that there was an infantry company and artillery (25 pndr) present. I take it the towed ATGs were 40mm? That would make sense during this timeframe.
Any detailed information on the Italian units available?
Andreas posted on 24 February 2009
The towed ATGs definitely 2-pdr (although probably not towed but portee'd). The LAA guns Bofors 40mm. The armoured cars... No idea. Probably Marmon-Herringtons of South-African manufacture.
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paters ... edcars.htm
All the best
Andreas
david posted on 26 February 2009
The 11th Hussars had had their Marmon Herringtons replaced by Humber MkII s by late October of 1941.
There should have been a total of 61 in a full strength Regiment.
Jeff Leser posted on 26 February 2009
Italian Forces at Bir el-Gobi (from Montanari)
Ariete Armored Division
132° reggimento carri medi
VII° battaglione carri M13/40
VIII° battaglione carri M13/40
IX° battaglione carri M13/40
8° reggimento bersaglieri
V/8° battaglioni bersaglieri
XII/8°battaglioni bersaglieri
battaglione armi accompagnamento
battaglione controcarri (47/32)
132° reggimento artiglieria
I/132° artiglieria (75/27)
II/132°artiglieria (75/27)
1 gruppo/3° Celere artiglieri (75/27)
1 gruppo/24° artiglieria d’armata (105/28)
MILMART (seven 102mm guns)
Pista!
Jeff
david posted on 26 February 2009
Jeff.
The I & II Gruppi 132 Artiglieria Reggimento should be on 75/27, not 75/18. Agreed?
Do we know which was the battaglione Controcarri?
David
Jeff Leser posted on 26 February 2009
You are most certainly correct. I was using the OB for the Ariete found in Seconda offensiva Britannica in Africa Settentrionale e ripiegamento Italo-Tedesco nella sirtica orientale (pages 176-178). I just copied the information for the units identified at Bir el-Gobi in Le operazioni in Africa Settentriontale vol II, as that volume doesn't provide as detailed an OB as the earlier volume. As our Italian members have pointed out, the earlier official books have their flaws.
I have corrected my post.
Pista!
Jeff
david posted on 26 February 2009
Jeff.
Any idea on which Controcarri Battaglione it was?
Dili posted on 26 February 2009
What would be the TOE quantities of this two units:
I am mainly looking for the weapons.
battaglione armi accompagnamento
battaglione controcarri (47/32)
Thanks
david posted on 26 February 2009
The Battaglione a.a. was formerly III Battaglione Bersaglieri (M/C).
As a Battaglione a.a. it was comprised of.....
1x Compagnia c.a. of 8 x 20mm Breda mod35 L/65. (Although shortages of this weapon often meant that only 6 were allocated).
1x Compagnia Mitraglieri of 12 x 8mm medium M/G.
1x Compagnia mortai of 9 x 81mm mortars. (Can someone please confirm that 9 is correct, as I only have it pencilled in.)
byron posted on 26 February 2009
This is the kind of stuff I was looking for guys! Thanks!
Question: Did the Bersaglieri battalions have ATGs included in their TO&E; or did they only use the ones from the "battaglione controcarri" (which I think is an ATG battalion)? I only ask because I know the Italians were often short of ATGs throughout the conflict.
david posted on 26 February 2009
Question: Did the Bersaglieri battalions have ATGs included in their TO&E; or did they only use the ones from the "battaglione controcarri" (which I think is an ATG battalion)?
Which Bersag Batt?
When?
& yes it is!
byron posted on 27 February 2009
I'm only talking Bir el Gubi here! I know the 7th BB was there...not sure if others were present as well.
Jeff Leser posted on 27 February 2009
byron
The VII (7th) btg. bersaglieri was not at Bir el-Gobi. The VII btg. is part of the 1° reggimento bersaglieri that was assigned to the 1° Celere Division. The 7° reggimento bersaglieri was assigned to the Trento Division. It appears your information is from Iron Hull, Iron Hearts. That book is incorrect in placing that battalion at this battle.
I am currently working through the c.c situation. If all units were present, the Ariete should have one c.c. battery in each bersaglieri btg., and two c.c. companies in the c.c. btg., for a total of 32 guns. The acc. e c.a. btg. didn't have c.c. units.
During this time, all the units in A.S. were being transformed to the A.S. organization. Montanari (page 314) has an explanation and chart on how the artillery would be modified/upgraded in A.S. (a combination of transfers between divisions and new units arriving from Italy). What this means is that the units were influx at this time, so the standard OOB of the unit likely doesn't apply.
None of my sources provides a detailed OOB for the battle. Montanari describes the units in terms of their battle positions. As I noted, Iron Hulls has significant problems in the details. So this OOB remains a work in progress.
Pista!
Jeff
david posted on 28 February 2009
Agreed!
Jeff. What designation did Ariete's c.c Battaglione use at this time? And do you know the component Compagnia numbers please?
byron posted on 28 February 2009
More information I've dug up:
The 8th Bersaglieri Regiment apparently was present. The 5th battalion, supported by II/132 artillery (75/27), was near El Cuasc.
The 3rd Battalion, supported by guns of the 3rd Artillery (75/27) was East of the ridge.
The 12th Battalion, supported by the I/132 artillery was to the West.
To the North was the 24th Artillery (105/28 guns) and the seven 102mm truck mounted guns of the Milmart.
Further North was the 132 tank regiment.
Most of the artillery's guns were the 75/27 variety, I think. The exception was the 24th.
Does anyone know how many guns were included in the the 1/132 and II/132 artillery groups? What about the 3rd and 24th?
The ATGs of the batt controcarri appear to have been mixed throughout the formations as were the supporting units of the batt. armi accomp.
byron.
david posted on 28 February 2009
I gruppo 132 Art Reg had 3 batteries of 4 x 75/27 each.
II Gruppo 132 Art Reg was the same as I Gruppo.
III Guppo did not exist. The I/24 Gruppo of 12 x 105/28 is sometimes mistakenly reported as IIIGr/132.
The II/24 was attached to Divisione Pavia, in much the same way that the 1/24 was with Ariete. perhaps the 3rd artillery you mention is not even meant to be a part of Ariete? Let me know.
Jeff Leser posted on 27 February 2009
byron
The information you have provided is straight from Montanari vol II (pages 413-414). It proves that one shouldn't read a foreign language when they are tired. I wondered if the III btg. bersaglieri was present and there it is in black and white. I kept reading il instead of III. My bad.
The III btg bersaglieri was east of the triple crossroads (est del trivio), not the ridge. What this means is the III/8° bersaglieri has not been converted to a btg. acc. e c.a. as it is holding its own position and not broken up to support the other two battalions. So the III/8° bersaglieri is still an infantry unit. If the III btg. was originally a motorcycle unit, it wouldn't have a c.c company. This implies only two c.c. companies and sixteen 47/32 c.c.
David
Given this, I don't believe the btg. c.c had been established. I have attached the OOB from Seconda offensiva (allegato 2). As you can read, several units are marked mancante (lacking/missing). Also note the 75/18s shown in the artillery regiment (one missing). Note how the term mancante is positioned to indicate the unit. As the word is not placed next to the c.c. btg. itself, but the btg. HQ, I have been puzzled whether this means the entire btg. is missing or just the HQ. As I haven't found a total number of 47/32 present, I have not been able to pin down the number of c.c companies persent.
I have also attached the artillery reorganization from Montanari page 314. This was ordered in September 41, but how much of this was accomplished before November?
Okay, I am still working the few sources I have to see if I can pin this down. I swear I have an article somewhere on this battle. I guess it is to the filing cabinet downstairs.
Pista!
Jeff
[I will rescan the files that were originally attached. There is more to post tomorrow]
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