Order of Battle R.E. Sep. 1943

[jwsleser]

Maurizio

Agreed that we will never fully reconstruct the status of the R.E. on 8 September. We can reconstruct what we can and ensure that anyone using this research understands what is verified and what is conjecture. The original author put significant effort into building this OB. So far, it is mainly based on Le operazioni della unità italiane nel september-ottobre 1943. One problem is that the author tried to fil-in the gaps using structural/organizational norms without stating where he was doing this. For example, he labeled any infantry and artillery in the divisioni costiera. I know that there are many cases where regular units were assigned to the d. cos., so that isn't a good methodology. I don't know where he found the T.M. data, but he has a lot of it and it is unlikely that it is all made up. The trick will be to sort through what is fact and what is conjecture.

I have also discovered that at times he mixed the OB with tactical organizations (i.e. units temporarily attached for a specific task). I am trying to sort that out as well.

The USSME has published quite a few new books in th exact 20 years, some that touch directly on the topic of the T.M. and costal artillery. These will not have all the information, but we can slowly build the OB with these sources.

Contribute if you will. Sit back and enjoy if you wish. All I can ask is while conducting your own research you read a interesting bit that can help piece together the puzzle, share it here.

Pista! Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

Jeff
.....I have also discovered that at times he mixed the OB with tactical organizations (i.e. units temporarily attached for a specific task). I am trying to sort that out as well.......absolutely right......
All the best
Maurizio

 

[semo75]

Excellent maps and info! Thanks a lot, Jeff!

semo75

 

[DrG]

This map shows the high commands of the Regio Esercito on 8 Sept. 1943. Its quality is poor, especially if compared to the excellent maps provided by Jeff, but I think it can be useful for a general view. It comes from "Il Regio Esercito alla vigilia dell'8 settembre 1943" by Filippo Cappellano and Nicola Pignato.

 

[Asterix]

Very interesting. My grandfather at the armistice was with XIV Gruppo Artiglieria d'Armata in Greece. I was wondering if there are similar maps also for that battlefront.

 

[Dili]

25 April 1943 was attached to Forli divison based on Athens. From the image it seems to be in Petalioi Gulf Coast near Nea Makri

 

[Asterix]

25 April 1943 was attached to Forli divison based on Athens. From the image it seems to be in Petalioi Gulf Coast near Nea Makri
View attachment 1332

Thanks! Where did you find this information? I mean, that the 25 of april the XIV Gruppo Artiglieria was attached to the Divisione Forlì? This could be very useful. I was also wandering to whom the XIV Gruppo was originally belonging to. My guess is that it was a part of the 3° Reggimento Artiglieria Pistoia/Fossalta that was left behind by the Divisione Pistoia when it was sent to Africa, but I don't know where to look for this piece of information. Very interesting could be also to know which artillery pieces they had, maybe the 149/35 for coastal defense?

 

[Dili]

I have in my notes.
Since it is an Armata level artillery group, it is not part of an divisional regiment. It should be part of an armata raggruppamento but can also be independent. Yes it shows 149/35 for coastal defence in its 3 batteries 40,41,42º.
I will be checking where it came from.

 

[Asterix]

I have in my notes.
Since it is an Armata level artillery group, it is not part of an divisional regiment. It should be part of an armata raggruppamento but can also be independent. Yes it shows 149/35 for coastal defence in its 3 batteries 40,41,42º.
I will be checking where it came from.

Thank you very much, maybe you can also help me in understanding my grandfather journey.

He was called to army in Jan 43 and assigned to the 3° Reggimento Artiglieria:

Then when he went back home in his documents is written that he was in Greece with the 3° Artiglieria d'Armata - 14° Gruppo Artiglieria d'Armata.

Are these all the same units?

 

[Asterix]

Thank you very much, maybe you can also help me in understanding my grandfather journey.

He was called to army in Jan 43 and assigned to the 3° Reggimento Artiglieria:

View attachment 1334
View attachment 1338

Then when he went back home in his documents is written that he was in Greece with the 3° Artiglieria d'Armata - 14° Gruppo Artiglieria d'Armata.

View attachment 1336
View attachment 1337

Are these all the same units?

 

[Asterix]

In the meantime, following your hints I found this pubblication:

OCCUPATION FORCES IN GREECE DURING WORLD WAR II 1941-1944 PART XVIII ITALIAN GROUND FORCES IN GREECE, 25 APRIL 1943-Through Italian staff maps Scanned and edited by Alexis Mehtidis from T-812 R-143/IT1220 (section)

OCCUPATION FORCES IN GREEECE DURING WORLD WAR II 1941-44 PART XVIII Italian Ground Force in Greece, 25 April 1943-Through Italian staff maps

An exhaustive order-of-battle with dispositions of all the Italian ground forces in Greece, 25 April 1943. Witht he use of detailed Italian staff maps of the time.

www.academia.edu

in which the 40-41-42 batteries of the XIV are depicted.

 

[Dili]

Wow you found my source , it was indeed Alexis , i have the map and a note in my spreadsheet.

I suspect that the 3ºReggimento Armata was the unit that mobilised your grand father and was not deployed in combat.

 

[Asterix]

Wow you found my source , it was indeed Alexis , i have the map and a note in my spreadsheet.

I suspect that the 3ºReggimento Armata was the unit that mobilised your grand father and was not deployed in combat.

3° Reggimento Artiglieria "Pistoia"(Fossalta) was with the Divisione Pistoia in Greece, but was largely left behind when the Division was sent to Africa. Probably the battalions left in Greece were transformed in Gruppi Artiglieria d'Armata. I don't know. This is just a guess.

Here is the Pistoia order of battle in Africa without the main part of the 3° Reggimento Artiglieria.

Divisione Motorizzata Pistoia, 23.10.42

 

[diciassette2000]

Asterix
Please note that the fact that your grandfather was recruited as a servant in the artillery in the ranks of the 3rd regiment does not mean that he then did active service in the same department. Keep in mind that the 3rd field artillery regiment was based in Bologna but in the nomenclature of the Italian army of the time the term regiment was equivalent to a training department from which personnel could also be sorted for other departments. The 14th Army Artillery Group of 149/35 was a group made up of the 3rd Army Regiment also from Bologna which never mobilized the 3rd Army Group during the entire war therefore its mobilized groups went to complete other Large Units or served as in the case of the 14th Group in armies without an Army Grouping as was the 11th Army in Greece. Therefore I think that your grandfather was enrolled in the 3rd field artillery regiment of Bologna but then immediately assigned to the 14th Group in Greece. Moreover, one thing that in my opinion definitively proves this is that the month of enlistment is January 1943 and the Pistoia division was already in North Africa since November 1942, therefore it seems strange that your grandfather was captured in Greece in September 1943 and not in Tunisia in May 1943........but obviously it's just a hypothesis....
All the best
maurizio

Invia commenti

Riquadri laterali​

 

[Dili]

3° Reggimento Artiglieria "Pistoia"(Fossalta) was with the Divisione Pistoia in Greece, but was largely left behind when the Division was sent to Africa. Probably the battalions left in Greece were transformed in Gruppi Artiglieria d'Armata. I don't know. This is just a guess.

Here is the Pistoia order of battle in Africa without the main part of the 3° Reggimento Artiglieria.

Divisione Motorizzata Pistoia, 23.10.42

View attachment 1340

Italian Army can have at least 2 3º Artillery Regiments

Below are different units.

3º Reggimento Artiglieria (Division) - this is the only unit that goes to the field
3º Reggimento Artiglieria d'Armata (this is a depot, mobilization, training unit) that creates artillery HQ's , batteries, groups and raggruppamenti.


In the combat can even be more confusing.
You have the above:
3º Reggimento Artiglieria (Division) usually under its division.

but you can also have at Corps level
3º Raggruppamento d' Artiglieria Corpo d'Armata usually with 105mm guns and 149mm howitzers
and at Army level
3º Raggruppamento d' Artiglieria d'Armata usually with 149mm guns and in some circumstances heavier guns and mortars.

They might have been created by 3º Reggimento Artiglieria d'Armata or other Regiment.

Note that the number here is not necessarily relevant, the 3º Reggimento can create the 16º Raggruppamento.