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Organization of the Bersaglieri

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I have not found any source that states a reg. bers. has 45mm Brixia mortars. In fact, the reg. moto also lacks 45mm mortars. If anyone has a reliable source that states otherwise, I need to know what it is. While it is possible the bersaglieri used Birixia in the field (after all anything is possible), I don't believe it was common/wide-spread.

I have collect several new sources over the past 4 years, so it is taking a bit longer to rework the article.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Grazie! I should have figured that our for myself. Brain wasn't working.
 
Hi
Obviously a mistake, I also never found 45 mm Brixia in the formations of bersaglieri if not as a support of circumstance in the absence of another but never as a weapon provided in the formation type...
All the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I am back. I will take look at this. Likely a brain cramp on my part.
 
Actually, I never had the opportunity to find an Italian TOE for the 47/32 truck company relating to 1940, the only official Toe of that type of unit starts from June 1942 and so it results to me on the basis of a table EMS of the time
Squadra cannoni da 47/32
June 1942
1 Sergente (Sargent)(squad commander)
3 Cannonieri (Gunners)
1 47mm/32 anti-tank gun
6 Serventi al pezzo (Ammunition Suppliers)
1 Autista di camion (Truck Driver)
1 Light Truck
11 men

Plotone cannoni da 47/32
June 1942

Plotone cannoni (Gun Platoons)with:
1 Ufficiale subalterno (Subaltern)(commander)
1 Caporale (Corporal)
1 Staffetta motociclista (Motorcycle Courier)
1 moto singola (solo motorcycle)
2 Squadre cannoni (Gun Squads) each with:
1 Sergente (Sargent)(squad commander)
3 Cannonieri (Gunners)
1 47mm/32 anti-tank gun
6 Serventi al pezzo (Ammunition Suppliers)
1 Autista di camion (Truck Driver)
1 Light Truck
25 men

Compagnia controcarro da 47/32
June 1942

Anti-Tank Company with:
Comando (Command)
1 Capitano (Captain) (commander)
Squadra comando (Command Squad)
1 Sergente (Sergeant)
1 Caporale (Corporal)
2 Staffette motocicliste (Motorcycle Couriers)
2 moto singole (solo motorcycles)
4 serventi (Suppliers)
4 Autisti di camion (Truck Drivers)
3 Light Trucks
1 meccanico (Mechanic)
1 motociclista (Motorcyclist)
1 moto con sidecar (motorcycle with sidecar)
5 sottufficiali per vari impieghi (Privates for various duties)
4 Plotoni cannoni (Gun Platoons), each with:
1 Ufficiale subalterno (Subaltern)(commander)
1 Caporale (Corporal)
1 Staffetta motociclista (Motorcycle Courier)
1 moto singola (solo motorcycle)
2 Squadre cannoni (Gun Squads) each with:
1 Sergente (Sargent)(squad commander)
3 Cannonieri (Gunners)
1 47mm/32 anti-tank gun
6 Serventi al pezzo (Ammunition Suppliers)
1 Autista di camion (Truck Driver)
1 Light Truck
120 men

all the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks Maurizio. I was getting ready to post.

I don't believe a TO&E for a truck-equipped 47/32 compagnia c.c. existed in 1940. As the 47/32 gun wasn't designed to be towed, all the TO&Es reflect the animal-supported company. Trucks were provided when needed in motorized units, but the TO&E wasn't change to reflect the use of trucks.

Squadra cannoni da 47/32 1940.
1 capo pezzo
5 Cannonieri (Gunners)
5 Serventi al pezzo (Ammunition Suppliers)
9 conducenti (mule handlers)
1 47mm/32 anti-tank gun

Plotoni cannoni da 47/32 1940.
1 Comandante
1 Staffetta e segnalatore
1 Attendente
2 squadra cannoni da 47/32

Compagnia cannoni da 47/32
1 Comandanti
1 aiutante
Comando compagnia (54 men)
4 plotoni cannoni da 47/32

Pista! Jeff
 

Dili

Member
But the Bersaglieri were already fully trucked in some regiments so there is no reason to not exist that in 1940.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
First understand that nothing is certain. We are working with limited information.

Maurizio stated that he has yet to find the organization of a motorized cp. c.c. da 47 for 1940-1941. This doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Maurizio has done a lot of research over the years searching for the organization of R.E. units. He has yet to find one.

If in fact no formal organization exists, I offered a possible reason why it doesn't exist. The R.E. approach to motorization was one of centralized assets. The units themselves had the minimum number of transport, with the division/corps holding a large motor pool that was tasked to support subordinate units as needed. The 47/32 c.c. wasn't designed to be towed. When 'motorized', the gun was placed in the bed of a truck for transport. Given this reality, it is possible that the unit was moved using divisional assets. In a motorized unit, the high headquarter's motor park was likely authorized the required number of vehicles to move the unit. These units could have been given dedicated vehicles from the park (meaning the vehicles were never returned to the park). By 1942 it was clear that the c.c. units needed to be fully motorized and their TO&E changed to reflect that new understanding.

This is speculation, for without the analysis used to determine the number of vehicle's assigned to a division in a TO&E, we can only guess on which vehicles were to be used for moving which units.

Pista! Jeff
 

Dili

Member
I know, but what was then the truck park of an Ariete of 1940 for example? We have how trucks are split in Fanteria Div's
 
I would like to make a general clarification on the TOE theme of the Regio Esercito because over the years I have had the opportunity to see that many especially wargamers are frantically searching for theoretical models to be applied to individual departments of the Royal Army. This "fashion" that has developed over the years on the American model of the standards in use at the time in the US army unfortunately CANNOT be applied to all the armies of the time. Upstream it must be considered that the American army was perhaps the only one at the time to be already supported by an industrial mass production that almost never meant that the front departments were far removed from the standards set by their TOE. What was VERY different was the state of the Royal Army and perhaps not only him. In fact, at the time Italy was still a nation almost entirely founded on an agricultural economy and with an industrial and war distribution and production not only not comparable to the American one but almost archaic. Not for this reason also the Reggio Army did not try to set standards (TOE) to be applied in the ranks of the units but alas ..... the fault of the typically Italian bureaucracy combined with the failure to achieve adequate production standards ended up improvising a lot and the result was that not only were organic schemes almost never respected, but many times also schemes were applied to these which instead of being lasting over time changed almost continuously even substantially. For example, in 1940 organic tables called "provisional" were issued, that is, they had to be applied only for the French campaign of 1940 but then in fact remained in force only to be gradually modified according to need by applying on them some "ad Hoc" reductions like 15% more in that department, 30% less in that other and so on. In this case then in AS I have NEVER found a department that for various reasons had the exact composition provided for in the tables dedicated to it. Even in the case of the organic type AS42 which in fact were the most long-lived of the whole campaign (May 1942-May 1943) there was in fact no division that applied them in full ..... however, returning to our topic, the Aries division for example is just one of those striking examples ... if you look in detail it framed at the moment of its arrival in AS (1941) a bersaglieri regiment (8.o) that had everything instead of a composition adhering to the tables in force at the time for the Bersaglieri regiments (presence of a 37/45 section in the battalion staff, 2 47/32 gun companies instead of one and both formed by army personnel instead of Bersaglieri who however formed the personnel of the third divisional battery of 47 / 32 attached in addition and to be precise with an overall defferent staff, regimental self-department increased by 15% etc etc ...) therefore perhaps we should instead look for organic tables in fact almost never re it is up to you to search for the real compositions on the field ... which is very difficult ....
all the best
Maurizio
 

Dili

Member
Yes i understand the changes and somewhat ad-hoc nature of those , but usually changes came from an existing structure. You can't calculate logistics without those.

For example what was the Unfoc of normal Bersaglieri with those of 8. in Ariete 1941 start?

Also Regio Esercito had a sort of "Unfoc" for fuel logistics?
 
I did not say that there was not a basic nomenclature even in the Royal Army but unfortunately it was often readjusted as needed and always downwards ... as regards the UNFOC in AS they were calculated from time to time on the basis of the missions and of availability there was no universal standard .....
All the best
Maurizio
 

Dili

Member
I meant a fuel unit like unfoc, If the Ariete have 1000 trucks or 800 trucks there should be a difference at least on paper. Was that ever revealed in historiography? not necessarily Ariete but any other kind of division.
 
According to the SME tables of the time, the armored division type 1941 had to have a total of 1187 vehicles including special ones and excluded carried auto armored against the 629 of the type 1940 ... something that not only never was but which also took second place when someone in AS had the great idea of centralizing all the vehicles and fuels available at the moment to the army autogroups, which made the organic tables not only clearly useless but upset a little all the logistics of the Royal Army in those places .. .... moreover, the only formation of that type in that period present in AS was dimensioned gradually as the type of missions required it by adding or decreasing the ad hoc staff especially in the mechanical means that were continuously reworked according to the availability ... even the milmart was put in place which, to increase its offensive fire, sold truck-mounted pieces of 100 and 120mm of its "property" evidently extra organic ...... .
all the best
Maurizio
 
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