Regia Marina Gruppo D'artiglieria

[jwsleser]

Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:50 AM by david

Following on from my enquiry about R.M manned guns within the Tobruk perimeter, I have some more questions that can all live in the same thread.

Would the R.M manned 102/35 of Sidi Mahamud have been aligned seaward?

Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:39 AM by madmike

david, on 04 August 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:
Following on from my enquiry about R.M manned guns within the Tobruk perimeter, I have some more questions that can all live in the same thread.

Would the R.M manned 102/35 of Sidi Mahamud have been aligned seaward?

Again, no. Look at the maps: a battery about 5\6 km inland, with medium to light caliber guns, can't operate against ships.

Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:02 PM by david

Thanks.

Am I safe to assume that all of the following, although R.M manned, were facing landwards?

Tortora.
Marsa Bejad.
Dandolo.
Bellotti.
Grasso.
Marsa Mreira.

Thanks.

Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:57 PM by madmike

They are batterie contraeree (AA batteries) of the Regia Marina

Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:02 PM by david

They are batterie contraeree (AA batteries) of the Regia Marina

I have them with 149mm, 102mm & 152mm ????

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:27 AM by diciasssette2000

I

have them with 149mm, 102mm & 152mm ????

Regia Marina batteries never have 149mm (only 102/35, 76/40 and 152mm). The Tobruk regia Marina (Milmart) batteries it's a very difficult matter. They change time to time (Tobruk was lost and reconquest) and change also the caliber of batteries (also Bardia, Tripoli, Bengasi and Derna)...so change the names of batteries and also the employement (AA and coastal and AA/coastal (doppio compito)). Some batteries are also provvisional and some manned from Regio Esercito.
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:33 PM by david

Regia Marina batteries never have 149mm (only 102/35, 76/40 and 152mm). The Tobruk regia Marina (Milmart) batteries it's a very difficult matter. They change time to time (Tobruk was lost and reconquest) and change also the caliber of batteries (also Bardia, Tripoli, Bengasi and Derna)...so change the names of batteries and also the employement (AA and coastal and AA/coastal (doppio compito)). Some batteries are also provvisional and some manned from Regio Esercito.
All the best
Maurizio

Thanks. So can we confirm what guns and how many were present on Juune 10th 1940 at....
Marsa Bejad.
Dandolo.
Bellotti.
Grasso.
Marsa Mreira.

Thanks.

Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:41 PM by dicassette2000

Thanks. So can we confirm what guns and how many were present on Juune 10th 1940 at....
Marsa Bejad.
Dandolo.
Bellotti.
Grasso.
Marsa Mreira.

Thanks.

At 10/6/1940 in Tobruk were these (operative) Regia Marina batteries (Milmart served)
-Batteria “Dandolo” (5 pezzi da 149/47)
-Batteria “Bellotti” (4 pezzi da 149/47)
-Batteria “Grasso” (4 pezzi da 149/47)
-Batteria “Tortora” (6 pezzi da 102/35)
-Batteria “Bejad” (6 pezzi da 102/35)
-Batteria “Pilastrino” (1 pezzo da 76/40, 5 in allestimento)
-Batteria “Sidi-Mahamud” della Regia Marina (6 pezzi da 102/35)
-Batteria “Tordo” 6 pezzi da 76/40)
-Batteria “Toro” (6 pezzi da 76/40)
-Batteria “Topo” (6 pezzi da 76/40)
-Batteria “Tonno” (6 pezzi da 76/40)
All the best
maurizio

Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:00 PM by david

That's great!

Thank you.

Do you happen to know the locations of...
-Batteria “Tordo” 6 pezzi da 76/40)
-Batteria “Toro” (6 pezzi da 76/40)
-Batteria “Topo” (6 pezzi da 76/40)
-Batteria “Tonno” (6 pezzi da 76/40)

Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:29 PM by dicassette2000

Batteria Tordo est ex Forte Solaro-Settore Orientale (AA battery)
Batteria Toro nord ex Forte Airente Aggaret-el Auda Area-Settore Occidentale (AA battery)
Batteria Topo Marsa el Eriga area -Settore Orientale (AA battery)
Batteria Tonno Marsa Tobruk Fanale area (AA Battery)
Note) the initial "T" of the battery names was for T of "Tobruk"
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:53 PM by david

Great information, thank you!

Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:04 PM by david

Do you know anything about 13th Regia Marina Gruppo D'Artiglieria; Marsa Mreira?

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:55 AM by dicassette2000

David
A 13th Regia Marina Gruppo di artiglieria never exist (in ww2)(Regia Marina dont have Gruppi di artiglieria) but exist (in Tobruk) a Batteria SP 13 RM in an area between Marsa Mreira and Marsa ab el Krim
raised in august-october 1942 with 4 152/45 guns. In 1940 it dont exist........
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:47 AM by david

Thanks, that solves that one.

Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:36 PM by Dili

Regia Marina batteries never have 149mm

As you posted later, yes they have

149/47
149/43
149/42
149/37

are the coastal guns i have found in a fast search.

Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:56 AM by dicassette2000

Only 149/47 from 1939-1940 many reraised with 152/45 in 1942......
All the best
Maurizio

Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:57 PM by Dili

I have 149/37 at Pola, 1 battery with 6 149/42 in Libya at unknown place.

You are right that 149/43 were only put after war start. In Lampedusa.

Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:35 PM by diciassette2000

I have 149/37 at Pola, 1 battery with 6 149/42 in Libya at unknown place.

You are right that 149/43 were only put after war start. In Lampedusa.

Dili ...at this point I .... surrended.... (unfortunately... sigh!!!). This is an other italian hodgepodge (very big hodgepodge). The fact.... the 15 cm Tbts K L/45 o 15 cm Ubts+Tbts K L/45 was a german naval ww1 gun and in italian Regia Marina was named 149/42. It equipped the ship Premuda, (in german navy-SMS V 116 classe S113) and when in 1939 was wrecked the 149/42 guns were disembarked and manned by MILMART in Libia and Albania. But the ship have only 4 guns and 3 of them were shipped to Albania (Valona port REGIO ESERCITO battery). So 4-3=1 (Phreaps in Libia???? Where in Libia). The 15 cm SK L/45 was also a german naval ww1 guns and in italian nomenclature was 149/43 and equipped three italian (ex kaiser navy): RN Bari, incrociatore leggero (ex-SMS Pillau) ,RN Taranto, incrociatore leggero (ex-SMS Strasburg) and RN Ancona, esploratore (ex-SMS Graudenz) but....the Bari and the Taranto were in active service throught the ww2 (all) . Only Ancona were wrecked in 1938. The Ancona have 8-10 149/43 guns but four of them were send to Lampedusa (LP 1 Milmart battery) and so only 4-6 of them were at Milmart disposition for Libia. So first of all the 6 guns in Libia were 149/43 and not 149/42 or a mixed of 5+1 (43-42) ??????. Other big question?????? No 149/42 or 43 are in 1939 " allegato" SME.... so a mistake??? ( an "italian" solution) or a mistake the 149/47 TOBRUK batteries (some of the guns were 1949/42 or 43?????)....If you have an answer write to me....
All the best
Maurizio
PS
I find a note that say that the 149/42 and 43 were "send" from MILMART to Regio Esercito ( a solution can the TRIPOLI's 30.o raggruppamento costiero and contraereo ????)

Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:52 PM by david

Good work Maurizio.

 

[jwsleser]

Posted 10 August 2013 - 01:57 PM by Dili

Dili ...at this point I .... surrended.... (unfortunately... sigh!!!). This is an other italian hodgepodge (very big hodgepodge). The fact.... the 15 cm Tbts K L/45 o 15 cm Ubts+Tbts K L/45 was a german naval ww1 gun and in italian Regia Marina was named 149/42. It equipped the ship Premuda, (in german navy-SMS V 116 classe S113) and when in 1939 was wrecked the 149/42 guns were disembarked and manned by MILMART in Libia and Albania. But the ship have only 4 guns and 3 of them were shipped to Albania (Valona port REGIO ESERCITO battery). So 4-3=1 (Phreaps in Libia???? Where in Libia). The 15 cm SK L/45 was also a german naval ww1 guns and in italian nomenclature was 149/43 and equipped three italian (ex kaiser navy): RN Bari, incrociatore leggero (ex-SMS Pillau) ,RN Taranto, incrociatore leggero (ex-SMS Strasburg) and RN Ancona, esploratore (ex-SMS Graudenz) but....the Bari and the Taranto were in active service throught the ww2 (all) . Only Ancona were wrecked in 1938. The Ancona have 8-10 149/43 guns but four of them were send to Lampedusa (LP 1 Milmart battery) and so only 4-6 of them were at Milmart disposition for Libia. So first of all the 6 guns in Libia were 149/43 and not 149/42 or a mixed of 5+1 (43-42) ??????. Other big question?????? No 149/42 or 43 are in 1939 " allegato" SME.... so a mistake??? ( an "italian" solution) or a mistake the 149/47 TOBRUK batteries (some of the guns were 1949/42 or 43?????)....If you have an answer writhe to me....
All the best
Maurizio
PS
I find a note that say that the 149/42 and 43 were "send" from MILMART to Regio Esercito ( a solution can the TRIPOLI's 30.o raggruppamento costiero and contraereo ????)

Well we can't get perfection.

Your point about Premuda having 4 guns only is very important, still needs to be found if Italy didn't get other guns of same model from other boats or even just WW1 payments.
It is also possible there was a mix 149/43, 149/42 like you say.

I have 149/47 in Valona not 149/43. 149/43 i only have at Lampedusa.

So:

4x 149/42 WW1 German Gun from DD Premuda
7x 149/43 WW1 German Gun from CL Ancona (CL Bari, Taranto in service)
several 149/47 WW1 Austro-Hungarian gun GM 239 and 240 Pontoons,Tobruk, Pola, Albania Coastal defenses.


Yes the 30º Raggr., is a possiblity, i wondered why it had only the heavy 190/39 guns.

See also this for a possible 149/42 in Tobruk:
http://forum.axishis...66653&start=135

Also an unknown coastal gun said to be in Bomba-Menelao:
http://forum.axishis...66653&start=150



Captured ships from WW1
http://cca.analisidi...13060538_it.pdf

Note the mistake, no 149/42 , Premuda guns are listed as 149/43.