Semovente 76/46 and 90/53 question

[bestemperor]

ive been talking to a reashercher and he said
"As for the self-propelled 75/46, 8 units were completed in '43 and 3 in '44, for a total of 11 vehicles. They were renamed StuG M43 mit 75/46 853 (i) and used in Italy for the defense of the Gothic line. I found evidence (Guglielmi's book) of a single German unit, the StuG Bde 914, which used the vehicle in Emilia Romagna in the summer of '44." i tried looking more into StuG Bde 914 and have found little on the subject expect a small fourm

 

[DonCarnage]

Bizzare. The 914th brigade did indeed have StuG m43 853(i) in spring/summer '44 - because that's German designation for semovente 105/25 (31 - full roster). They switched to German equipment in August/September when their semoventi had been worn down to just handfull in working condition. This is the first I hear about them having any other type of semoventi than 105/25. On this forum someone says they still had semoventi in October, but that's news to me as well. Let's wait and see what Jeff will say with the book im hand.

 

[bestemperor]

it tells me that they had other semovties but no the 75/46

 

[jwsleser]

The Guglielmi book arrived today. While I would say a stretch on the price, the type and quantity/quality of the information is of value to the specialist. I don't think I would have normally bought it, but I don't regret the decision. Main problem with the book is that it lacks an index. Even worst, given the topic of the book (Italian vehicles in German service), there isn't a cross reference between vehicles built/delivered and the German units that used the vehicles.

To use our current question, the M43 da 75/46. The production information is on p.127, however there is no mention on that page identifying which units used the vehicle. The reader must read through each individual German unit entry in Part Three Employment in the Field to discover which vehicles each individual German unit used. IBWs, the book allows one to find the German unit and learn which vehicles were employed during the life of the unit, but you can't do the reverse. A serious limitation for this type of book. I will need a little time to see in which units the M43 da 75/46 was used, assuming the info is somewhere in the book.

What I know now. The production info on p.127 states seven vehicle built between Oct-Nov 1944; one in Dec 44; two in Jan 45; and one in Mar 45. This is a mismatch between the production/delivery data found in the German reports in Panzer Tracts and Gli autoveicoli. We have a third variation of the production run.

The entry on the Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 914 (pp.195-196) confirms what the Feldgrau forum stated. It was the M43 da 105/25 that was issued to the brigade in Feb 44. The unit received 21 new M43 (type not stated) on 19 July, which is too early for the M43 75/46. It received German guns in Oct. The worn out equipment (stated as 105/25) were sent to the 232 Inf Div, but none of the vehicles were serviceable.

Pista! Jeff

 

[jwsleser]

La trama si è addensata....

I was finally able to spend more than a few moments with the Guglielmi book.

P.228-229 has a chart with a breakdown of type/number of vehicles in each German unit as of 31 Dec 1944. Two issues. All the 75mm type semoventi are lumped together as one number of each German unit. For example, the twelve 75mm M SPG could be 75/18s, 75/34s, 75/46s, or a mix. The second issue is the 71st Inf Division is not in the list (this is important).

P.280-284 is a list by unit of their vehicle strength at various times in 43-45. I am sure the data is based on the existing reports. Again the 71st isn't included in this list.

Both of these lists are missing at least one unit that is included in Part Three Employment in the Field. I don't know if more units are missing from the list, but this indicates I can't fully trust the these two lists to be complete.

Okay, now the tricky bit. Where are the M43 da 75/46? From various places in the book:

Panzer Ausbildung-Abteilung Süd - This was a training/maintenance unit. It had one vehicle.
71st Inf Div - It had three vehicles.
305th Inf Div - It had two vehicles.
356 Inf Div - It had one vehicle.

Total: Seven vehicles.

What is more interesting. The three vehicles in the 71st were returned to Italy in Jan 45 for repairs as they were unserviceable (p.202). This now possibly changes the two vehicles reported in Panzer Tracts in March from being newly built to repaired (but see below).

From the document section of the book (Part Five). These are translations (only in Italian) of the actual German reports:

What is more, more interesting. The 20 February report with the data for 1 Jan-15 Feb 1945 states that there are two M43 da 75/46 being delivered (p.274).

Si trovano in questo momento in via consegna

It doesn't say that two M43 da 75/46 had been completed as stated by Panzer Tracts (p.103).

What is even more, more interesting. A footnote to the 20 March 1945 German report states that the two vehicles delivered in this report were likely the same two vehicles reported the previous month.

Si trattava con tutta probabiltà degli stessi due mezzi già contabilizzati nel mesr precedente e poi, per qualche ragione, non distribuiti.

Going back the Panzer Tracts:

Another point is whether the the M43 75/46 and the M43 in the Panzer Tracts reports on p.106 are the same type of vehicle? In two different paragraphs we read both M43 da 75/46 and M43 vehicles being completed or rearmed. But are they both meaning 75/46 vehicles? Why use two different nomenclatures in the same paragraph unless there is a difference? It could be that the 'normal' M43 is the M43 da 75/34 and the M43 75/46 is identified separately. So the two M43 that had guns fitted in Feb-Mar could be M43 da 75/34 and not 75/46.

 

[DonCarnage]

Hi Jeff
Your wallet's sacrifice is much appreciated. Not much cleared indeed when it comes to the '45 production.
Panzer Tracts' report speaks specifically about six 75/46 cannons produced in february/march, two of them fitted on chassises, so we would have to assume a mistake on the German side or typo on authors' side. As the 75/34 were of little interest for this text I don't consider it realistic solution.

From snippets on GoogleBooks I see that on page 210 there is a unit mentioned which received the 1 semovente built in december - I assume it's about 356th. It would mean that we don't even have the data on assigment of all 7 initially produced vehicles (according to Italians I assume?). Or worse - it would mean that all German documents, both about production and distribution mention only 7 vehicles in 1944. DId they exclude the prototype? On page 103 of PT it is mentioned that in addition to the 7 produced in '44, one "StuG M43" (L34 or 46) was repaired according to OKH (so according to different source than the one for '45 "production"). Assuming that Ansaldo listed also the vehicles after extensive repaires would solve the '44 number but not the '45, because even assuming that only 2 vehicles were repaired (jan/feb=feb/mar, ignoring the data about barrels in feb/march) or 2 were repaired (jan/feb) and 2 produced (feb/march) the numbers do not add up. Unless only 2 were repired/produced in 45 and the Anslado's 3rd was "produced" after 15th March, i.e. after the German reporting period (like the missing m43 da 75/34? some of which seem to be captured be the allies in April '45 still in factory?).

Does he cite the Ansaldo document or only the German one's? Did the Anslado document specify the months of delivery? Is there any info about distribution of vehicles "produced" in '45?

 

[jwsleser]

Good day Don

It is unlikely we will resolve the issue of the number of semoventi da 75/46 that were built and/or issued/used. The available information is basically unclear and it appears we disagree is how it should be read. I have tried to match production with deliveries, but I can't get the numbers to work.

We know at least 7 vehicles were produced in 1944 (I believe this includes the prototype). Stating that 8 were produced in 1944 creates more problems than it solves. I still have questions about 1945. We know the units/location of 7 vehicles in total for both years.

I have assumed that the 1 vehicle in Abt. Süd was the prototype and delivered in 1944, as the unit was responsible for training everyone. Again I have assumed that the 3 vehicles in the 71st were delivered in 1944 as they were with the division in Jan 1945 while the unit was in Hungary. The 1 vehicle in the 356th was delivered in Dec. So two vehicles from 1944 production are unaccounted for. 3 vehicles if you accept 8 vehicles were built in 1944.

The two vehicles for the 305th were built in Jan and delivered in Feb. So 2 vehicles are not accounted for (only 1 if 8 vehicles were built in 1944).

A good question to answer is what is the date of the picture of the six vehicles at the factory?

Understand that Panzer Tracts takes various paragraphs from different part of the reports and ran them together.

20 Mar

- The two M43 da 75/46 being delivered is from Part II of the report.

- The Current Work Status is from Part III

- The Rearming is from Part VII.

These are not meant to be read together as a single, flowing discussion.

My translation of the report about the 6-8 shortfall is:

The lower delivery of 6-8 Stu. Gesch. M43 compared to forecasts was caused by the non-delivery of the guns.
La consegna inferiore di 6-8 Stu. Gesch. M43 rispetto alle previsioni è stata causata dalla mancata consegna del cannoni.

A question for our native Italian speaking members: is it a lower delivery of only 6-8 vehicles or a shortfall of 6-8 vehicles? Of course, I am translating an Italian translation of a report written in German.

As the 75/34 were of little interest for this text I don't consider it realistic solution.

I disagree. There were three types of semoventi M3 produced during the war: 75/34, 75/46, and 105/25. Guglielmi states that a total of 19 semoventi M43 da 75/34 were produced in 1945 (12 in Jan, the remaining 7 between Feb-Apr). Guglielmi doesn't provide detailed production numbers/dates for the 105/25, but it is likely that none were produced in 1945. We are currently discussing the 4 possible M43 da 75/46.

The Current Work Status must refer to both types of 75-gun equipped semoventi. The M43 da 75/34 was still being produced. The discussion to continue production of only the M43 75/46 was happening in March 1945 and had not been approved or implemented.

Panzer Tracts' report speaks specifically about six 75/46 cannons produced in february/march, two of them fitted on chassises, so we would have to assume a mistake on the German side or typo on authors' side.

This is from part VII of the report. Guglielmi footnoted that these two vehicles were sent to the 305th (p.280).

From snippets on GoogleBooks I see that on page 210 there is a unit mentioned which received the 1 semovente built in december - I assume it's about 356th.

Yes, it was the 356th.

Does he cite the Ansaldo document or only the German one's?

He doesn't include the Ansaldo document in the Document section. It isn't listed in his bibliography.

Pista! Jeff

 

[DonCarnage]

Thanks for clarification Jeff

 

[jwsleser]

My current working theory is that 11 vehicles were built, but only 7 were delivered. The 4 unaccounted for vehicles were all deficient in some manner (still missing components) or suffered from quality control issues. This possibly explains why the 305th was issued 2 vehicles built in Jan 45 instead of the 2 vehicles 'unaccounted for' from the 1944 production. In all the sources, the shortage of guns, radios, and gun optics (sights), as well as construction issue (sometimes sabotage) are cited as reasons why vehicles of all types were not issued. The 2 vehicles unaccounted for in 1945 were likely those built in March and still lacked components and remained undelivered before the war ended. Anyhow, that is a theory.

 

[jwsleser]

In all this discussion, the the semoventi da 90/53 has been neglected.

Interestingly, Guglielmi believes only 1 semoventi da 90/53 was seized by the Germans (p.128), although in parentheses he states that some sources claim all 6 were captured. That is the extent of what he offers. No information on use. A picture of one gun with a German officer, and one picture of a gun destroyed at Nettuno (this latter picture is the one MelaraClubPrez posted in this thread).

Doing a little more searching, Guglielmi pops up in Unit ID Confirmed discussing pictures from Panzerwrecks 9. He states that the symbol on the vehicle is Panzer Regiment 26 and the unit...

Kriegsgliederungen’ do show a single 9 cm Pak (i) being with Stab Pz.Rgt. 26 continuously from 1.12.1943 until 1.3.1944

You can see the pictures HERE

His book was published in 2005 and the Panzerwrecks comment was 2011. Does anyone have Panzerwrecks 9?

Does anyone have the picture of the six semoventi on the rail cars?

Pista! Jeff

 

[DonCarnage]

Nothing of interest in Panzerwrecks. Just a caption that pictures are from spring/summer '44 and some speculation about unit of origin clarified in addenda linked by you.

 

[jwsleser]

Thanks!

 

[DonCarnage]

A short addendum
Book La Meccanizzazione Dell'esercito Italiano dalle Origini al 1943 vol 1 part 2 mentions an OKH document that listed vehicles acquired (acquisi - but it is not citation) to 31st October '44. Among them are 6 semoventi da 75/46.