Solothurn ATR

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
#1
Posted 02 June 2005 - 05:15 PM by Lupo Solitario

I'm looking for some data about the employment of solothurn ATR in italian army...

a) how was employed? AT squads for infantry company? AT companies at an higher level?
b) why there is no trace of them in official TO&E; 1940?
c) Were they used only in NA or also on other fronts?
d) Could they use the same ammos of 20mm AA guns?
e) How many had been purchased by italian army?

thanks for any help

Posted 04 June 2005 - 09:05 AM Franco

I don't know
but for b maybe that at june 40 the army had not buy the Solothurn
for a in AS 42 Toe was a plat with 3 ATR for each infantry coy

Posted 07 June 2005 - 01:39 PM by Attilio

From Cappellano: Le Artiglierie del regio Esercito.....
Le prime armi parte di una fornitura di 100 pezzi giunsero in Italia nel 1940.
Seguirono altri acquisti di armi di nuova fabbricazione in Svizzera e preda bellicaOlandese in germania (60 esemplari). Nel marzo 1942 risultavano in commessa 2.500 esemplari 300 dei quali già ricevuti e 105 in collaudo
L'arma utilizzava cartocci proietto calibro 20 mm italiani con potere perforante analogo al materale Rheinmetall o Solothurn.
L'Italia acquisto sia il modello semiautomatico designato mod. 1939 sia la versione a tiro continuo nota come mod. 1941.
Inizialmente (1940) venne distributo in ragione di una sezione di 2 armi a battaglione di fanteria, besaglieri e libico. Alle divisioni di fanteria tipo AS 42 vennero assegnate 72 ore 12 per ogni battaglione. Le divisioni Superga, Friuli e Livorno ebbero una compagnia su 12 armi inserita nel battaglione armi controcarro divisionale.
Altre arimi andarono ai reparto giovani fasciti e Bersaglieri delle divisioni corazzate e motorizzate in Africa settentrionale e ai battaglioni alpini del 20° raggruppamento sciatori
Nel 1943 la Divisione paracadutisti Nembo sostitui i fuciloni polacchi calibro 7,92 con i Solothurn in numero di 3 per ogni compagnia.
Nel gennaio 1942 erano schiearti 578 armi di cui 350 in AS. 114 erano ancora in distribuzionenel febbraio 1943 alla I armata in Tunisia
Il fucilone sparava un cartoccio granata perforante scoppiante da 20 mm mod. 35 con tracciatore munito di spoletta avvitata posteriormente al corpo.
L'arma era servita da un graduato e 3 serventi
La compagnia fuciloni inquadrata nel 20° Btg armi controcarro
della divisione di fanteria Friuli comprendeva:
squadra comando
3 plotoni fuciloni su 2 squadre di 2 pezzi ciascuna

Best regards
Attilio

Posted 13 June 2005 - 02:11 PM by e_pi

Ciao,
I'm very interested in the "fucile controcarro mod. 35" and I only knew that the "Pasubio" division, while operating in Russia, had receveid some from the Germans; have you any further information about the Units that used this almost unknown weapons (in italian army, I mean) ...

Thanks in advance
- - - - -
Ciao Attilio,

sono interessatissimo all'uso del fucilone polacco da parte delle unità del Regio e, finora sapevo solo che era stato usato dalla divisione "Pasubio" in Russia con esiti previdibili... ; hai mica qualche ulteriore informazione sulle unità che usarono quest'arma, pressochè sconosciuta?

Grazie in anticipo e a presto

Posted 14 June 2005 - 10:09 PM by Attilio

The polish AT rfiel was assigned to the Battaglioni misti per Divisione Motorizzata tipo AS 42 and to the para units. In Northa Africa 144 fuciloni were sent, 32 securly assigned to Trento division.
Each Btg Giovani Fascisti at Bir El Gobi had 9 fuciloni polacchi

regards
Attilio

Posted 15 June 2005 - 11:44 AM by e_pi

Thanks a lot, Attilio!

May I ask for the source, is it the same Cappellano's book?

Bye

Posted 16 June 2005 - 03:08 PM by Attilio

source: Filippo Cappellano
I Fucili controcarro del Regio Esercito: 1940-43

Panorama Difesa gennaio 2000

Regards
Attilio

Posted 23 June 2005 - 11:24 AM by michele

Just a doubt:

If Cappellano says that in March 1942 300 Solothurn were already received and 105 were in test (2500 ordered), how is it possible that in January 1942 (two months earlier) the army had 578 Solothurns, 350 of which in northern Africa?. Even when I sum 60 bought from germans I have 300+105+60=465 ATR instead of 578.

Regards.

Posted 08 October 2005 - 11:29 AM by Gian

Has anyone info on the usage of this weapon in the post-Armistice period?
Was it fielded by RSI, Partisans, Germans?

Posted 08 October 2005 - 01:45 PM by Franco

michele said:
Just a doubt:

If Cappellano says that in March 1942 300 Solothurn were already received and 105 were in test (2500 ordered), how is it possible that in January 1942 (two months earlier) the army had 578 Solothurns, 350 of which in northern Africa?. Even when I sum 60 bought from germans I have 300+105+60=465 ATR instead of 578.

Regards.

Che ne erano in commessa 2500 non significa che commesse precedenti non erano state già state completamente consegnate quindi è possibile che alcune commesse precedenti di minor rilievo erano già state completate a quella data.

Many thanks at somebody can translate it

Posted 08 October 2005 - 07:03 PM by Gian

Che ne erano in commessa 2500 non significa che commesse precedenti non erano state già state completamente consegnate quindi è possibile che alcune commesse precedenti di minor rilievo erano già state completate a quella data.
The fact that 2500 were ordered does not imply that earlier orders hadn't yet been fulfilled, so it is possible that some earlier and less relevant ones had already been completed by that time.

Posted 18 September 2006 - 06:20 PM by Bob Star

Ciao!! I have listed this same string of questions in the Reenactor forum but haven't had to many responses so I'll try here. I've been researching the Solothurn 20mm anti-tank cannon/rifle and find it to be a very impressive piece of equipment. I do have some questions though and several have been stated by others in this subject area so bear with me when you've heard this before. First, was this only issued to the Bersaglieri troops? I've seen pictures of them using them in NA and some captured ones in Tunisia. Second, where would the Solothurn fit in in the Italian organizational scheme (Heavy weapons company, Anti-tank company)? Third, were they ever used on the continent or in Russia? Fourth, were any used by RSI forces after 1943? And last question, does anyone have the exact dimensions of the weapon? I know they were big and heavy. Grazie in advance for any help here. Bob Starr

Posted 18 September 2006 - 07:31 PM by Davide Pastore

source: Filippo Cappellano
I Fucili controcarro del Regio Esercito: 1940-43
Panorama Difesa gennaio 2000
Does the article contain any detail about the assignment to Folgore? How many per battalion, attached to which level, etc.

Posted 23 September 2006 - 06:40 PM by Attilio

The article of Cappellano stated:

"Le tabelle organiche per la divisione paracadutisti prevedevano una sezione di due armi per ciascuna compagnia (guastatori e reparti compresi)"

Migliavacca in the Book la Folgore nella battaglia di El Alamein stated:
" la difessa controcarro era integrata da pochi fuciloni polacchi"

regards

Attilio

Posted 11 June 2008 - 07:23 AM by david

Do we know when the first Solothurn were received by the troops in N.A?
Or when they were first used in the L3 series of light tanks?

Posted 29 December 2009 - 08:23 PM by Gian

Or when they were first used in the L3 series of light tanks?
In 1941, apparently at the time of the first British counteroffensive in the Desert.

Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:53 PM by jwsleser

According to Cappellano (page 240), 100 Solothruns were purchase at the end of 1940 and immediately sent to the 10th Army in A.S. The Germans provided 60 more in 1941 that had been originally made for the Dutch Army. 2,500 were obtained in 1942, mainly to equip the A.S. 42 structure.

Pista!

Jeff

Posted 31 December 2009 - 05:15 PM by jwsleser

I have references to the Solothurn in La prima offensiva Britannica in A.S. . The weapons are mentioned with the divisioni libica (6 squadre fuciloni c.c on page 94, two on page 95), Maletti (page 95). On 10 December 10th, the Solothurns of the divisione Sirte had been given to the Brigata corazzata speciale (page 332). The weapons are mentioned at Bardia in January (page 156).

So there are plenty of refernces to the weapon to indicate that the Solothurns were issued prior to Operation Compass in significant numbers.

Pista!

Jeff

Posted 07 April 2011 - 12:53 PM by david

Do we know which units got the 60 German made Solothurns mentioned above?

Do we know of any other deliveries of Solothurn apart from those theoretically arriving when units started to change from AS40 to AS42?
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
#2
From another thread Solothurn AT Gun

Posted 13 February 2004 - 09:06 AM by JeffreyF

Does it use a magazine method similar to the Finnish Lahti at gun? The pictures I have do not show the magazine loaded so I am unsure of this.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/l39.jpg

Or was it a single shot weapon? Reason I ask is that it was brought up that the Finnish found a way to turn theirs into a full-auto for adhoc aa gun against il-2 and the like. I thought I had remembered something about the solothurn being considered for such a role but couldn't find any messages in regards to the solothurn here.

In addition does anyone have penetration numbers for the gun? I have
30° 19mm@100m and 11mm@500m

and finally how many would be assigned to a division?

Thanks for any information.

Posted 13 February 2004 - 12:08 PM by Attilio

The gun was a semiautomatic gun with a orizzontal magazine of 10 rounds.
Initially (1940) the Infantry Division and Libian Division had two guns for battaillon.
The OB of Infantry Division tipo ASA 1942 had instead 72 guns, 12 for each battaillon

Penetration data: 20 mm 15° 400 m, 30 mm 0° 500 m
Source: Cappellano, Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella II Guerra Mondiale

19 mm 30° 100 m, 11 mm 500 m 30°
Source: Jentz, Tank Combat in North Africa but I have some doubts about the data of Jentz

Regards
Attilio
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
#3
Posted 21 April 2011 - 12:15 PM by david

Guys, I can't see any Solothurns or 47mm A.T.G on the T.o&E of the Battaglione Motorizzato of Divisions Like Trento or Trieste in either the AS 40 or AS 42 designations.
There are of course some 47/32 in their Battaglione Armi Accom' but no Solothurn that I can see.
Am I mistaken? Would they have had some in the regular Battaglione?

Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:25 PM by Dili

I would say the solothurns were deployed to infantry fuciliere, but i have never saw them listed as a part of TOE - i mean who operated them -. I am also curious about that.

Some quotes i have maybe from this own forum:

later in 1940 100 solothurn are distributed of 2 per battalion
To each infantry company of Divisione di Fanteria tipo AS-42 "Brescia", "Pavia", "Bologna", "Sabratha" and of Divisione Motorizzata "Trento" and "Trieste" was assigned one AT platoon with 25 mm AT guns and one AT platoon with 20 mm Solothurn or Breda mod 35. The 1a Armata in Tunisia (Mareth line) on february 1943 had 36 25/72 guns.
For GGFF i have this

2 Fuciliere Bn, Each: 3 Fuciliere Co, each with 3 plt( in total Both Bn had 27 LMG and 15 ATR solothurn.
From my data the biggest ATR unit seems to be the company with 12-15 ATR, the first number makes possible to have 2 ATR to each of 6 battalions fuciliere of a typical Division since i don't think the company operated as a whole unit. Now when in Africa the regiments changed to 2Bn fuciliere+Bn AA.CC i don't know what happened.

I have also 15 ATR listed in some Divisions like Ariete, the GGFF above.

and a company of 8 solothurns(maybe missing a part of unit since part of if was sunk) in Cavalry Regiment Lodi in Tunisia.
 
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