What Recon Battalions did the Italians use before the Gruppo/Squadrini Nizza armoured arrived in 42? I see small units attached to Divisional and Regimental HQs but no specific battalions like the Gruppo/Squadrini Nizza. The Germans and the British both have a lot of armoured car units wandering about creating havoc, apart from the motorcycle battalions was there anything more beefy?
What Recon Battalions did the Italians use before the Gruppo/Squadrini Nizza armoured arrived in 42
- Thread starter Kraal
- Start date
David Wormell
Member
Not really is the short answer.
As you point out there were the Bersaglieri Motorcycle Companies. Also the PAI Battalion Romolo Gessi, but only one of the three companies had AB40/41, and these did not arrive until September 1941. And finally, one Squadron of AB41 with VIII Battalion Bersaglieri Blindato Autonomo.
The situation only gets a little better in the second half of 1942 after Nizza arrives.
Kind regards,
David.
As you point out there were the Bersaglieri Motorcycle Companies. Also the PAI Battalion Romolo Gessi, but only one of the three companies had AB40/41, and these did not arrive until September 1941. And finally, one Squadron of AB41 with VIII Battalion Bersaglieri Blindato Autonomo.
The situation only gets a little better in the second half of 1942 after Nizza arrives.
Kind regards,
David.
As David stated, the Italians didn't have reparti esploranti at the divisional level. Generally infantry regiments had a plotone esplorante, but armor and motorized units didn't have such units. Reconnaissance was normally done by ad hoc units formed by the echelon tasked with the mission. The cp. motociclisti bersagleri assigned to the df. tipo A.S. were more for liaison/LOC support than reconnaissance. The cp. carri L. assigned were to support infantry units. Both of these units were pressed into service as esplorante, but that wasn't their doctrinal function.
The raggruppamento esplorante del corpo d'armata di manovra (RECAM) was the first attempt to create a reconnaissance capability at echelons higher than regiment. The RECAM itself was ad hoc, mashing together what was available rather than creating a unit specifically designed for the task. Actual units organized and equipped for reconnaissance were first assigned in the tipo A.S. 42 divisions.
Reconnaissance remained a weak point in the R.E. throughout the war. Lack of suitable equipment was the main shortfall. The AB series were good, but there were never enough not these vehicles. L3s and L6s were pressed into service to cover the shortages.
Pista! Jeff
The raggruppamento esplorante del corpo d'armata di manovra (RECAM) was the first attempt to create a reconnaissance capability at echelons higher than regiment. The RECAM itself was ad hoc, mashing together what was available rather than creating a unit specifically designed for the task. Actual units organized and equipped for reconnaissance were first assigned in the tipo A.S. 42 divisions.
Reconnaissance remained a weak point in the R.E. throughout the war. Lack of suitable equipment was the main shortfall. The AB series were good, but there were never enough not these vehicles. L3s and L6s were pressed into service to cover the shortages.
Pista! Jeff
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David Wormell
Member
Thanks Jeff.
I did not know about the true roles of the Bersaglieri Compagnia.
I did not know about the true roles of the Bersaglieri Compagnia.
diciassette2000
Member
Jeff is right, in fact the Royal Army in North Africa did not have an organic department for exploration until the middle of 1942 with the arrival, albeit suffered by the Nizza group and the Monferrato Group. To be precise, we should say that paradoxically there was a divisional exploration group on armored cars even in the distant 1940, a pity that it was formed by 6/8 Spa35 refurbished armored cars dating back to 1915. After them they were temporarily attached to the armored Babini brigade and lost to Beda Fomm and the surrounding area remained only the bersagliere motorcyclist companies and it was necessary to wait for the coming of the RECAM in late 1941 to see a first attempt to set up an organic reconnaissance unit. The RECAM (RAGGRUPPAMENTO ESPLORANTE CORPO ARMATA DI MANOVRA) we remember was however yet another composite and non-organic unit among other things preceded by a further attempt made by the Trieste division to activate a divisional reconnaissance unit using armored vehicles and not prey. partly reconditioned English war. However even this experience ended and the following attempt at implementation did not even see the light. It was therefore necessary to wait for the arrival of the two armored cars to remedy the situation.
All the best
Maurizio
All the best
Maurizio
The Germans never provided autoblindi (armored cars) to the Italians. The equipment transfers/purcahses that did happen were fairly rare. The JU 87s, the 88s, the limited equipment for the d. cor. «M», etc. all happened after serious negotiations. The Germans aggressively forced the return of any damaged German equipment salvaged by the R.E. Remember that Germany was trying to equipment their own forces. There wasn't much to spare.
Doctrine was another issue. The Italians viewed the corps as the main tactical maneuver element, not the division. So initial efforts were for a corps-level recce unit.
Finally Italian industry didn't wish to lose business due to Germany supplying equipment to the R.E. that they wanted to provide. The AB 40-43 series were quite capable, so production was the main problem.
In terms of borrowing, no. The Germans were always loath to put any German units under Italian command.
Pista! Jeff
Doctrine was another issue. The Italians viewed the corps as the main tactical maneuver element, not the division. So initial efforts were for a corps-level recce unit.
Finally Italian industry didn't wish to lose business due to Germany supplying equipment to the R.E. that they wanted to provide. The AB 40-43 series were quite capable, so production was the main problem.
In terms of borrowing, no. The Germans were always loath to put any German units under Italian command.
Pista! Jeff
David Wormell
Member
Hi Dili.
Do you mean the Italians?
The German's had SdKfz 222, in theory at least seven per A.A.A. In reality probably more as they replaced the m/g armed 221 with 222..
Do you mean the Italians?
The German's had SdKfz 222, in theory at least seven per A.A.A. In reality probably more as they replaced the m/g armed 221 with 222..
Alanmccoubrey
New Member
Does anyone know who commanded the RECAM ?
David Wormell
Member
Hi Alan.
During what period?
During what period?
Alanmccoubrey
New Member
Hi David, August 1942 I guess.
David Wormell
Member
Hi Alan.
Proving to be surprising elusive!
I'll keep looking.
Best wishes,
David.
Proving to be surprising elusive!
I'll keep looking.
Best wishes,
David.
Alanmccoubrey
New Member
Thanks so much David, you'd have thought someone would have named him in all those books about El Alamien !
Alanmccoubrey
New Member
Well if it wasn't the RECAM then how do you account for the "group" operating with the DAK Recce Group (3,33 and 580) on the southern flank at this time ? Ibelieve they included the Nizza Armoured Cars and Novarra Lancers. It is marked as RECAM on a German map, perhaps they stilll knew it as such despite the Italians not calling it that.
As I stated, there wasn't a RECAM unit. That unit was specific to the CAM and was disbanded after Crusader.
The unit that apparently is marked on the map was a Aufklärung kampfgruppe formed by the 3º, 33º, and 580º Aufklärungsbataillone and the Italian raggruppamento esplorante del XX Cd'A. The Italian ragg. was formed by the III gruppo autoblindo Nizza, the VIII btg. berg. autoblindo, and a btr. da 88/53, all units pulled from their parent formations. It was not a standing unit and is not an R.E.Co. See Montanari vol. III p.573 and fn.73. One would need to research primary sources to discover the Italian commander for this grouping, if one was ever appointed.
Pista! Jeff
The unit that apparently is marked on the map was a Aufklärung kampfgruppe formed by the 3º, 33º, and 580º Aufklärungsbataillone and the Italian raggruppamento esplorante del XX Cd'A. The Italian ragg. was formed by the III gruppo autoblindo Nizza, the VIII btg. berg. autoblindo, and a btr. da 88/53, all units pulled from their parent formations. It was not a standing unit and is not an R.E.Co. See Montanari vol. III p.573 and fn.73. One would need to research primary sources to discover the Italian commander for this grouping, if one was ever appointed.
Pista! Jeff
Alanmccoubrey
New Member
Thanks Jeff, no wonder the Germans mixed up a CAM and a RECAM ! And just to show how confusing it can all be the German units were Abteilungen not Bataillone.
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