Did any Italian Military Internees post-armistice see combat outside of Italy?

[NeonSun]

Regarding the approximately 100K Italian soldiers that volunteered to fight for Germany following Operation Achse and underwent military training in the late-autumn of 1943 inside Germany. Did any of these soldiers see combat outside of Italy? If so, does anyone have info on this?

 

[jwsleser]

Welcome to the forum.

Not my area of detailed research, so can offer only generalities. AFAIK, none of the four divisions formed/trained in Germany served outside Italy.

 

[NeonSun]

Welcome to the forum.

Not my area of detailed research, so can offer only generalities. AFAIK, none of the four divisions formed/trained in Germany served outside Italy.

Thank you. It seems like Germany's compelling need for additional soldiers at that time would've been anywhere but Italy. Even taking into account Little Saturn the most ideal deployment location of those troops seemingly would be the eastern front.

 

[DrG]

If I am interpreting NeonSun's question correctly, he is not referring to the four divisions (for a total of 66,521 men, of which only 13,120 were former military internees) trained in Germany in mid-1944, but to the soldiers/units which sided with the Germans shortly after the armistice of 8 September 1943. This latter topic is a mess and AFAIK nobody has ever researched it in a complete and professional way. I can only refer to Nino Arena's "RSI. Forze Armate della Repubblica Sociale", 3 volumes, Albertelli, Parma, 1999-2002. In the second volume, chapter 10 (pp. 337-392), he writes about this topic, although in a rather a-systematic and erratic way. The total of Italians fighting within the Wehrmacht were 280,000 in 575 units. Of these units, 137 were operative (i.e. fighting) ones, 213 were auxiliary ones and 222 militarized ones (I guess he means militarized workers), please note that the total here is 572 and not 575. These units were of very different sizes: the largest were two regiments, Rhodos and Kreta, but mostly they were battalions or smaller units.
These units fought practically eveywhere in Europe, also in areas where the Italian Armed Forces hadn't been deployed before the armistice. A few years ago there were some articles on the press about those assigned to the Atlantic Wall, for example because the well known Italian actor Walter Chiari was deployed in Normandy in a FlaK unit. You can read something more about this topic here: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=48913

 

[NeonSun]

If I am interpreting NeonSun's question correctly, he is not referring to the four divisions (for a total of 66,521 men, of which only 13,120 were former military internees) trained in Germany in mid-1944, but to the soldiers/units which sided with the Germans shortly after the armistice of 8 September 1943. This latter topic is a mess and AFAIK nobody has ever researched it in a complete and professional way. I can only refer to Nino Arena's "RSI. Forze Armate della Repubblica Sociale", 3 volumes, Albertelli, Parma, 1999-2002. In the second volume, chapter 10 (pp. 337-392), he writes about this topic, although in a rather a-systematic and erratic way. The total of Italians fighting within the Wehrmacht were 280,000 in 575 units. Of these units, 137 were operative (i.e. fighting) ones, 213 were auxiliary ones and 222 militarized ones (I guess he means militarized workers), please note that the total here is 572 and not 575. These units were of very different sizes: the largest were two regiments, Rhodos and Kreta, but mostly they were battalions or smaller units.
These units fought practically eveywhere in Europe, also in areas where the Italian Armed Forces hadn't been deployed before the armistice. A few years ago there were some articles on the press about those assigned to the Atlantic Wall, for example because the well known Italian actor Walter Chiari was deployed in Normandy in a FlaK unit. You can read something more about this topic here: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=48913

DrG, you are interpreting my question correctly. I read through the link at the AHF, and it confirms what you wrote. Ostensibly any remaining info around this is either in pre-internet Italian periodicals, or perhaps in the Bundesarchiv? Thanks for the great reply!

 

[DrG]

The saddest thing is that, besides the sources mentioned by me and other people in that very old thread on the AHF, I don't know any further one published in the following years. Surely the German archives are full of information, but given that those Italian units were scattered around the Wehrmacht the documents about them are scattered as well. If you can read Italian you may start from the sources provided in the AHF thread, but I fear you won't be able to go much further than them. Arena is practically a summary of the whole research made up to twenty years ago, but after that date little more has been published. If you are really interested you should check the issues (105 and going on) of the review ACTA https://fondazionersi.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=ACTA or look for the table of contents of old reviews such as "Storia del XX Secolo", "Storia del Novecento", "Storia e Battaglie", "SGM Seconda Guerra Mondiale", "Storia Verità", etc.

 

[NeonSun]

DrG, I'm very grateful for your valuable posts! I was never able to read Italian, and have lost what was a limited-ability to speak it. I'd be inclined to think that most of the documents about this topic were released on paper prior to the new millennium. Ideally some that are fluent in Italian could present some info about this.

 

[jwsleser]

he writes about this topic, although in a rather a-systematic and erratic way.

I have found this style of writing in all the books written by Arena on the paracadutisti. Very frustrating to work through.

 

[Darren Marshall]

Some italians fought along side the germans in France during the operation Overlord, the "1ª Divisione Atlantica Fucilieri di Marina" which between August and September 1944 distinguished themselves for the strenuous defense of the island of Cézembre, located in the center of the bay of Saint-Malo.

 

[diciassette2000]

From the books of Nino Arena

FRANCE
-BASE ATLANTICA SMGG. "BETASOM’’ di Bordeaux
With the Italian staff were set up:
-1ª Divisione Atlantica Fucilieri di Marina (with a Btg. garrison Base "Betasom’’)
Establishment of mixed Italian-German crews for naval escort units, Antisom and four minesweeper squadrons (under the command of Movm and CF 1st cl. Cap. Vascello Enzo Grossi)
-n° 6 Coast battery (Gironda area)
-others coastal battery (Tolone area)
-Service battalions
-Engineers and service battalions
Other units in France
-Reparto Autonomo Volontari Milizia
-1° Gruppo Artiglieria pesante
-6° Gruppo Artiglieria pesante
-1114° Gr. Artiglieria a.a. (Provenza and later Germany)
-Gruppo Speciale CC.NN. da sbarco (a Tolone)
-18ª Cp. Sussistenza (a Nizza)
-Many costruction and services battalions
-Reparti della MGR
-ANR ( Istres: Gruppo Aerosiluranti).
(The Departments remained in arms until early May 45, while the Marine Artillery Section in Saint Nazaire - German naval base on the Loire estuary - ceased hostilities on May 17, 1945).

GERMANY
DANZICA
The personnel of the Submarine Base of Danzica - under the orders of the Movm Commander Mario Arillo - who had joined the RSI, were partly transferred to "Betasom '' in Bordeaux, others chose the 10th MAS Flotilla.

NORD SEA and BALTIC SEA
The two Battalions of Nebbiogeni, present in various areas of northern Germany, immediately joined the RSI, continuing their service always appreciated by the Germans. "The 39th Cp. Nebbiogeni employed in the locality of Wilhelmshafen was the first unit - in September '43 - to raise the Republican flag in Germany. '' Immediately afterwards, the German Commands requested the establishment of a Training Center and new Battalions that they assumed the number of 1st, 4th and 5th.
Comando Truppe Nebbiogene (Stettino)
Centro di Addestramento
-1° Battaglione - Schwinemunde-Wilhelmshafen
-II° Battaglione - Gotenhafen
-III° Battaglione -Oderthal-Pillau
-IV° Battaglione -Noos Jerbau
-V° Battaglione - Grossborn-Zeit
-A nucleus of auxiliaries of the SAF
-1° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-2° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-3° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-6° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-8° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-9° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-10° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-14° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-III° Battaglione corazzato (Munzingen)
-4x Fortress battalions (Baltic)
-Detachment CXLI° Btg. "M’’ d’Assalto (from Crete)
-Plotone Carri "L’’ (Bergen) from Egeo
The NRA was present with the 114th Coastal Surveillance Group of Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Karelia, Czechoslovakia with the "Terracciano '' Air Transport Group and with the" Trabucchi '' Air Transport Group.

Small contingents of RSI troops were present in: HUNGARY: Artillery groups and a few hundred Soldiers POLAND: 63rd Cp; presidential office, headquarters, offices, hospital and services ROMANIA: Sailors and Autiers of the Naval Base of Constance BULGARIA: Cp. of Grenadiers

EGEO
DODECANESO
In the aftermath of the armistice, the Italians who had not accepted unconditional surrender prepared to continue hostilities alongside the Allied and against their old enemies. In Rhodes an Italian Aegean Unit Command was formed which had jurisdiction over the Formations that remained in arms or arose voluntarily.
-Reggimento Volontari "Rodi’’
-201ª Legione CC.NN. - GNR Egea "Conte Verde’’
-Cp. mitraglieri
-Cp. fucilieri (a Syra)
-Cp. GNR
-Cp. Volontari fascisti
-Cp. telecomunicazioni
-Batterie di Artiglieria (a Zante e Nauplis) e Lero
-due Battaglioni di costruttori

ISOLE CICLADI
-24ª Legione GNR "Carroccio’’ (Samos) ( 24° Btg., 25° Btg., 24ª Cp. mitraglieri, un Gruppo Artiglieria)
-Volontari Esercito aderenti alla RSI
-ANR: Reparto aereo dell’Egeo
(in arms until May 8, '45)

ISOLA DI CRETA
Legione Volontari Italiani "Creta’’
Gruppo Artiglieria
141° Btg. "M’’ d’Assalto (Retymno)
Reparti Genieri, Semaforisti e Servizi
due Battaglioni costruttori
MGR - quattro batterie costiere e armamento antiaereo
ANR - occasional presence of the Torpedo Bomber Group "Faggioni '' present the distant maritime reconnaissance (in arms until May 6, '45)

GRECIA
LXVII° Btg. CC.NN. (a Salonicco)

FRONTE RUSSO
BASE SOMMERGIBILI "CB’’ DEL MAR NERO
The personnel of the "CB '' Squadron stationed in the Black Sea and operating in the waters of the Crimea, joined the RSI. Already on 17 September 1943, the" CB 1 '' in war action sank a Soviet unit. Remained in arms until August 1944, the squadron personnel returned to Italy.

UCRAINA
In the face of the difficult situation in Russia, in the summer of '43, the 2nd Fallschirmjäger Division, which was based in Italy, was also sent to that chessboard. About fifty Italian Paratroopers, formerly of the 10th Arditi, joined this Unit, and were included in the divisional Exploring Group. From November 1943 to October '44, these Republicans - known as the Truck Driver Department - fought in the land of Russia, distinguished by valor, aggressiveness and constant presence in the hottest points of the clashes. The very few survivors continued the struggle in Belgium and Holland, where the 2nd Fallschirmjäger Division was subsequently deployed.

ESTREMO ORIENTE
Of the Departments and Ships located in the Far East, 90% of the Italians joined the RSI, i.e. almost all of the Italians present: Marò del "S. Marco '', Sailors and Seafarers formed a Marine Department out of three Battalions of fusiliers and a Battery There were adhesions among our compatriots in Shanghai (San Marco), Singapore, Malaysia and Japan.

JUGOSLAVIA - ALBANIA
-491 Legione GNR "Marche" (49' Big., 50' Big., 49' Cp. mitraglieri) dislocazione: Sebenico (Croazia), in armi sino al maggio '45 in Austria
-72a Legione GNR "Farini" (72' Btg., 33' Btg., 72' Cp. mitraglieri) dislocazione: Scutari (Albania), Podgorica e Danilovgrad (Croazia)
-86a Legione GNR "Indomita" (86' Btg., 94' Btg., 86' Cp. mitraglieri) dislocazione: Scutari Albania), Bosnia e Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-CX LIV' Battaglione Autonomo GNR "Irpino". Dislocazioni: Montenegro, Albania, Bosnia, Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-XXXIII'Btg. autonomo GNR. Dislocazione in Serbia. In armi sino al maggio '45 (Austria).
-XL' Btg. GNR "Scaligero". Dislocazione in Croazia e Slovenia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-LIII'Btg. aut. GNR. Dislocazioni in Serbia e Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-LXXXI' Btg. aut. GNR. Dislocazioni in Montenegro e Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45 (Zagabria). LXXXII' Btg. aut. GNR. Dislocazioni in Serbia Montenegro e Austria. In armi sino al maggio '45. XCII' Btg. aut. GNR. In Albania sino al marzo '44, indi in Croazia, poi rientrato in Italia.
-CXI' Btg. d'Assalto GNR. Dislocazioni: Montenegro, Serbia, Croazia. In armi sino al maggio'45 (Zagabria). XCIV' Btg. GNR (Montenegro)

All the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Maurizio

Thank you for the information from the Arena volumes. I have purchased two of the volumes, I will watch for the third.

Pista! Jeff

 

[DrG]

With regards to the Far East, there is the well known case of Raffaello Sanzio, an Italian sailor of the Regia Marina who joined the Kriegsmarine after the armistice of 8 Sept. 1943 and then the Japanese Navy after the German surrender in 1945:
http://www.regiamarina.net/detail_text.asp?nid=294&lid=1&cid=1
Further information in Italian language:
http://www.carro.it/tablinum/testi/italicum/raffaello.html
https://fondazionersi.org/mediawiki/images/5/52/Acta49.pdf (pages 6-7)
Another sailor on the submarine Torelli, Nello Bernardini, followed the same choices of Sanzio: http://www.weeklymagazine.it/2020/0...e-sulla-storia-di-raffaello-sanzio-kobayashi/

 

[NeonSun]

From the books of Nino Arena

FRANCE
-BASE ATLANTICA SMGG. "BETASOM’’ di Bordeaux
With the Italian staff were set up:
-1ª Divisione Atlantica Fucilieri di Marina (with a Btg. garrison Base "Betasom’’)
Establishment of mixed Italian-German crews for naval escort units, Antisom and four minesweeper squadrons (under the command of Movm and CF 1st cl. Cap. Vascello Enzo Grossi)
-n° 6 Coast battery (Gironda area)
-others coastal battery (Tolone area)
-Service battalions
-Engineers and service battalions
Other units in France
-Reparto Autonomo Volontari Milizia
-1° Gruppo Artiglieria pesante
-6° Gruppo Artiglieria pesante
-1114° Gr. Artiglieria a.a. (Provenza and later Germany)
-Gruppo Speciale CC.NN. da sbarco (a Tolone)
-18ª Cp. Sussistenza (a Nizza)
-Many costruction and services battalions
-Reparti della MGR
-ANR ( Istres: Gruppo Aerosiluranti).
(The Departments remained in arms until early May 45, while the Marine Artillery Section in Saint Nazaire - German naval base on the Loire estuary - ceased hostilities on May 17, 1945).

GERMANY
DANZICA
The personnel of the Submarine Base of Danzica - under the orders of the Movm Commander Mario Arillo - who had joined the RSI, were partly transferred to "Betasom '' in Bordeaux, others chose the 10th MAS Flotilla.

NORD SEA and BALTIC SEA
The two Battalions of Nebbiogeni, present in various areas of northern Germany, immediately joined the RSI, continuing their service always appreciated by the Germans. "The 39th Cp. Nebbiogeni employed in the locality of Wilhelmshafen was the first unit - in September '43 - to raise the Republican flag in Germany. '' Immediately afterwards, the German Commands requested the establishment of a Training Center and new Battalions that they assumed the number of 1st, 4th and 5th.
Comando Truppe Nebbiogene (Stettino)
Centro di Addestramento
-1° Battaglione - Schwinemunde-Wilhelmshafen
-II° Battaglione - Gotenhafen
-III° Battaglione -Oderthal-Pillau
-IV° Battaglione -Noos Jerbau
-V° Battaglione - Grossborn-Zeit
-A nucleus of auxiliaries of the SAF
-1° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-2° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-3° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-6° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-8° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-9° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-10° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-14° Reggimento Artiglieria costiera
-III° Battaglione corazzato (Munzingen)
-4x Fortress battalions (Baltic)
-Detachment CXLI° Btg. "M’’ d’Assalto (from Crete)
-Plotone Carri "L’’ (Bergen) from Egeo
The NRA was present with the 114th Coastal Surveillance Group of Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Karelia, Czechoslovakia with the "Terracciano '' Air Transport Group and with the" Trabucchi '' Air Transport Group.

Small contingents of RSI troops were present in: HUNGARY: Artillery groups and a few hundred Soldiers POLAND: 63rd Cp; presidential office, headquarters, offices, hospital and services ROMANIA: Sailors and Autiers of the Naval Base of Constance BULGARIA: Cp. of Grenadiers

EGEO
DODECANESO
In the aftermath of the armistice, the Italians who had not accepted unconditional surrender prepared to continue hostilities alongside the Allied and against their old enemies. In Rhodes an Italian Aegean Unit Command was formed which had jurisdiction over the Formations that remained in arms or arose voluntarily.
-Reggimento Volontari "Rodi’’
-201ª Legione CC.NN. - GNR Egea "Conte Verde’’
-Cp. mitraglieri
-Cp. fucilieri (a Syra)
-Cp. GNR
-Cp. Volontari fascisti
-Cp. telecomunicazioni
-Batterie di Artiglieria (a Zante e Nauplis) e Lero
-due Battaglioni di costruttori

ISOLE CICLADI
-24ª Legione GNR "Carroccio’’ (Samos) ( 24° Btg., 25° Btg., 24ª Cp. mitraglieri, un Gruppo Artiglieria)
-Volontari Esercito aderenti alla RSI
-ANR: Reparto aereo dell’Egeo
(in arms until May 8, '45)

ISOLA DI CRETA
Legione Volontari Italiani "Creta’’
Gruppo Artiglieria
141° Btg. "M’’ d’Assalto (Retymno)
Reparti Genieri, Semaforisti e Servizi
due Battaglioni costruttori
MGR - quattro batterie costiere e armamento antiaereo
ANR - occasional presence of the Torpedo Bomber Group "Faggioni '' present the distant maritime reconnaissance (in arms until May 6, '45)

GRECIA
LXVII° Btg. CC.NN. (a Salonicco)

FRONTE RUSSO
BASE SOMMERGIBILI "CB’’ DEL MAR NERO
The personnel of the "CB '' Squadron stationed in the Black Sea and operating in the waters of the Crimea, joined the RSI. Already on 17 September 1943, the" CB 1 '' in war action sank a Soviet unit. Remained in arms until August 1944, the squadron personnel returned to Italy.

UCRAINA
In the face of the difficult situation in Russia, in the summer of '43, the 2nd Fallschirmjäger Division, which was based in Italy, was also sent to that chessboard. About fifty Italian Paratroopers, formerly of the 10th Arditi, joined this Unit, and were included in the divisional Exploring Group. From November 1943 to October '44, these Republicans - known as the Truck Driver Department - fought in the land of Russia, distinguished by valor, aggressiveness and constant presence in the hottest points of the clashes. The very few survivors continued the struggle in Belgium and Holland, where the 2nd Fallschirmjäger Division was subsequently deployed.

ESTREMO ORIENTE
Of the Departments and Ships located in the Far East, 90% of the Italians joined the RSI, i.e. almost all of the Italians present: Marò del "S. Marco '', Sailors and Seafarers formed a Marine Department out of three Battalions of fusiliers and a Battery There were adhesions among our compatriots in Shanghai (San Marco), Singapore, Malaysia and Japan.

JUGOSLAVIA - ALBANIA
-491 Legione GNR "Marche" (49' Big., 50' Big., 49' Cp. mitraglieri) dislocazione: Sebenico (Croazia), in armi sino al maggio '45 in Austria
-72a Legione GNR "Farini" (72' Btg., 33' Btg., 72' Cp. mitraglieri) dislocazione: Scutari (Albania), Podgorica e Danilovgrad (Croazia)
-86a Legione GNR "Indomita" (86' Btg., 94' Btg., 86' Cp. mitraglieri) dislocazione: Scutari Albania), Bosnia e Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-CX LIV' Battaglione Autonomo GNR "Irpino". Dislocazioni: Montenegro, Albania, Bosnia, Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-XXXIII'Btg. autonomo GNR. Dislocazione in Serbia. In armi sino al maggio '45 (Austria).
-XL' Btg. GNR "Scaligero". Dislocazione in Croazia e Slovenia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-LIII'Btg. aut. GNR. Dislocazioni in Serbia e Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45.
-LXXXI' Btg. aut. GNR. Dislocazioni in Montenegro e Croazia. In armi sino al maggio '45 (Zagabria). LXXXII' Btg. aut. GNR. Dislocazioni in Serbia Montenegro e Austria. In armi sino al maggio '45. XCII' Btg. aut. GNR. In Albania sino al marzo '44, indi in Croazia, poi rientrato in Italia.
-CXI' Btg. d'Assalto GNR. Dislocazioni: Montenegro, Serbia, Croazia. In armi sino al maggio'45 (Zagabria). XCIV' Btg. GNR (Montenegro)

All the best
Maurizio

Great post with an abundance of information! This is a very comprehensive and detailed list. It seems like most of Nino Arena's books were published in Italian.

 

[NeonSun]

Maurizio

Thank you for the information from the Arena volumes. I have purchased two of the volumes, I will watch for the third.

Pista! Jeff

Jeff-of the 2 volumes you purchased, were they published in English? If so, could you please list the titles? Thanks!

 

[jwsleser]

NeonSun

No, the volumes are in Italian.

When I started to research the Italian military all so many years ago, I quickly understood that I would need to work in Italian. There just wasn't much on the Italian military in English, and much of that had limited value.

Things are bit better today. There has been many books in English published on the Regina Marina, and some really good work on the Regia Aeronautica has been published in the past twenty years. But these works focus on the actual fighting and don't fully explore the services in all aspects of creating an effective fighting force.

The Regio Esercito is the forgotten stepchild in all this, and it is not only a problem in English language works. There isn't a comprehensive official historical work in Italian for the R.E. similar to that of the R.A. There are many gaps in the historical accounts of the R.E. that are very frustrating.

The R.S.I. is not a research focus for me, but I like having some material to fully understand all the aspects of Italy's involvement in the war. I didn't realize that there was a fairly comprehensive account of that military until DrG mentioned the Arena volumes. So likely a handy set to have in the library just in case.

Pista! Jeff

 

[NeonSun]

NeonSun

No, the volumes are in Italian.

When I started to research the Italian military all so many years ago, I quickly understood that I would need to work in Italian. There just wasn't much on the Italian military in English, and much of that had limited value.

Things are bit better today. There has been many books in English published on the Regina Marina, and some really good work on the Regia Aeronautica has been published in the past twenty years. But these works focus on the actual fighting and don't fully explore the services in all aspects of creating an effective fighting force.

The Regio Esercito is the forgotten stepchild in all this, and it is not only a problem in English language works. There isn't a comprehensive official historical work in Italian for the R.E. similar to that of the R.A. There are many gaps in the historical accounts of the R.E. that are very frustrating.

The R.S.I. is not a research focus for me, but I like having some material to fully understand all the aspects of Italy's involvement in the war. I didn't realize that there was a fairly comprehensive account of that military until DrG mentioned the Arena volumes. So likely a handy set to have in the library just in case.

Pista! Jeff

Yes, that aligns with the searches I've done on this author. I did find one title however,

Air War in North Italy 1943 - 1945. - M.A.A. F. (Mediterranean Allied Air Force) by N.Arena, published in 1975.​