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Bardia Bill and Perimeter Pete

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by Dili » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:07 pm

This French origin 155/36 gun, apparently the other 2 also were there belonged to what Arty Raggr. unit? And what gruppo was?

Edited: to correctly say this is the second Bardia Bill at the time of Tobruk siege. The First one was in Compass Operation before the capture of Bardia.

Photo of second Bardia Bill:
bardia bill.jpg


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by dor1941 » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:19 pm

I believe these guns were of a German batterie-originally French Canon de 155 GPF in German service, designated 15.5-cm K.418(f) or K.419(f)-and were detached from Arko 104 which had three battalions of them during Crusader.
The Italians do not appear to have deployed a weapon of this caliber in North Africa in this period. Davide Pastore's review of Italian artillery on this Forum (citing Storia della Artiglieria Italiana) does not mention any gruppo or batteria with 155mm guns.
Further, Montanari (A.S., Vol. II-Tobruk, p. 536) notes all of the units in Bardia, Halfaya and the strongpoints occupied by D.f. Savona during Crusader, and the only 155mm guns are reported to be "una batteria da 155 (materiale francese di preda bellica)" in the "caposaldo dell' Halfaya (magg. Wilhelm Bach)" and are notably not identified as Italian.
Finally, I observed the 1944 article in The Field Artillery Journal by Lt. Col. Jarrett (with the same title as your post) is clearly describing the January '42 fall of Bardia when reporting the supposed capture of Italian 155mm guns, but he likely garbled the story from his British sources long after the actual event. Admittedly, we Americans are sometimes guilty of this
:oops:
.

David R

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by Dili » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:41 pm

Thanks. I am also inclined to believe they were in a German and not Italian unit. If you have access does Cappellano in is Artillery book say something about captured GPF guns?

I have them only in Sicilia and continental Italy, no notes about being in Africa.

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by dor1941 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:14 pm

Unfortunately I don't have access to Cappellano's book ("Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito"), sorry.

David R

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by Dili » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:00 am

Thanks.

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by jwsleser » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:36 pm

Cappellano's book

None of the French guns controlled by the Italians are listed as being in A.S. Cappellano doesn't discuss the French 155s in the main chapters. The only place they are noted is in Appendix 5 (Positional Artillery and Coastal Defense Artillery). Here on pages 279-280 all the various models are listed. The 155/36 are listed as coastal defense in Greece, Sardinia, Sicily, and mainland Italy.

I agree that Montanari indicates that the 155 guns at Halfaya are German and not Italian.

Pista!

Jeff

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by jwsleser » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:42 am

I checked the UK and Australian officials. While the UK set doesn’t mention Bardia Bill at all, the Australian set mentions the gun three times. The book (Tobruk and Alamein) makes it clear that identifying the gun was difficult and there might have been a 210mm gun used as well, but a French 155 is the usual suspect. On page 508, the history states that Bardia Bill was captured intact on 7 December, together with the German Master gunner who had refused to leave his gun. The cite for this passage is a 70th (UK) Division report.

This supports that the gun was part of a German unit and not Italian.

Pista!

Jeff

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by Dili » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:26 am

thanks jwsleser.

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by Andreas » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:15 pm

The picture definitely shows a French 155mm GPF. These were with German coastal artillery units in North Africa. They were used both, for the defense of Bardia and the siege of Tobruk.

According to the Panzerarmee OOB (which is likely to have errors, but I can not say whether specific numbers are in error), there were 3 Abteilungen with 3 batteries of 6 guns each (total 54) in NA at the start of CRUSADER - HKAA 528, 529, and 533, with a fourth Abteilung (525) having its 18 guns in Naples. They were under Arko 104, commanded by Generalmajor Boettcher.

All the best

Andreas

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by dor1941 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:50 pm

Andreas

I might be mistaken, but I thought the three battalions-HKAA-of these 15,5cm K.419 with Arko 104 in Crusader were numbered 523, 528 and 533, and the one remaining in Naples was 529. The lexicon-der-wehrmacht.de site did not have a listing for an HKAA 525. I also recall an old post by David W (dated 16.06.07 on the afrika-korps.de/forum) which said the abteilung still in Italy was numbered 529.

Do you have any other information that can confirm your source?

David R
 

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by Dili » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:48 pm

I have also 523,528,529,533. 533 would get later 25pdr captured. 528 started w/2 batteries.

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by Andreas » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:30 pm

dor1941 wrote:Andreas

I might be mistaken, but I thought the three battalions-HKAA-of these 15,5cm K.419 with Arko 104 in Crusader were numbered 523, 528 and 533, and the one remaining in Naples was 529. The lexicon-der-wehrmacht.de site did not have a listing for an HKAA 525. I also recall an old post by David W (dated 16.06.07 on the afrika-korps.de/forum) which said the abteilung still in Italy was numbered 529.

Do you have any other information that can confirm your source?

David R

It's probably my error and misreading of a really bad copy from a really old document. HKAA 533 was re-equipped with Canon de 155 Mle.1917 after CRUSADER:

Canon de 155 Mle 1917 Schneider C – who used them?

All the best

Andreas
 
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