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Battaglioni carri L in 1940

Kustosz2137

New Member
I'm looking for TOE of Italian light tank (tankettes) battalions that were used in 1940 invasion of Egipt:
XX btg. "Randaccio" of Comando Truppe della Tripolitania,
XXI btg. "Trombi" of Comando Truppe della Cirenaica,
LX btg. per Divisione Sabartha,
LXI btg. per Divisione Sirte,
LXII btg. per Divisione Marmarica,
LXIII btg. per Divisione Cirene,
and IX btg. per Divisione Libica (not sure which one tho).
 
Hi. Kustosz2137.

Welcome to the forum.

I'm pretty sure that if you do a search on this forum, you will find this information listed in the thread of an old topic.

Kind regards,
David.
 

Kustosz2137

New Member
Hi. Kustosz2137.

Welcome to the forum.

I'm pretty sure that if you do a search on this forum, you will find this information listed in the thread of an old topic.

Kind regards,
David.
I tried already, but didn't find any TOEs, searching for such things is problematic, as forum's 'search' function doesn't works for short phrases like units numbers etc.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I am not sure if you are seeking the actual TO&E type data (Formazione di guerra) or basic organizational info.

See Organization of btg. carri L

Pista! Jeff
 

Kustosz2137

New Member
Another, kinda related question. Did mentioned battalions had Lanciafiamme platoons in their structures, like those intended for armored divisions? Also how many platoons each company of such battalion had and how many tanks were in one? In the original thread response was kinda imprecise with this detail, saying "15 tanks on each"; it can mean that company had 3 platoons with 5 vehicles each and no command, 3 platoons with 4 vehicles each and 3 on command, or 4 platoons with 3 vehicles each and 3 on command. Which one of these is actual (theoretical) structure?
 
The typical structure of the battalion after the start of the war envisaged the composition of the L-type armored battalions (not to be confused with the armored groups of the rapid divisions which had another, albeit similar structure) envisaged an organic structure which could vary between a command company and three tank companies or a command company and two tank companies. The command company included a battalion command tank, a platoon of 4 flamethrower tanks for each tank company present (therefore a total of 8 if two companies were present or 12 if three companies were present) and a reserve tank platoon with two vehicles for each company present in the battalion (therefore 4 tanks if with two companies or 6 if with three) while each tank company included a tank for the company commander and three platoons of 4 tanks each therefore for a total of 13 tanks per company. A variant was practiced for the battalions already present in AS which were initially structured around three companies but without flamethrower platoons and therefore with 46 L tanks each. With the arrival of the Ariete division which instead had the divisional structure of a mixed regiment with three L tank battalions in two companies and one M tank battalion in three, the L tanks still active in AS (in spring 1941) were redefined by dividing them into two companies each of 13 L tanks and a command company with 4 L tanks and 8 flamethrower L tanks. Many times in even official texts companies are indicated with 15 tanks supplied, this is because many times even the reserve tanks were decentralized to the individual companies, resulting in an increase of tanks in the individual platoons from 4 to 5 also taking into account the redistribution of the company command tank.
All the best
Maurizio
 

Kustosz2137

New Member
The typical structure of the battalion after the start of the war envisaged the composition of the L-type armored battalions (not to be confused with the armored groups of the rapid divisions which had another, albeit similar structure) envisaged an organic structure which could vary between a command company and three tank companies or a command company and two tank companies. The command company included a battalion command tank, a platoon of 4 flamethrower tanks for each tank company present (therefore a total of 8 if two companies were present or 12 if three companies were present) and a reserve tank platoon with two vehicles for each company present in the battalion (therefore 4 tanks if with two companies or 6 if with three) while each tank company included a tank for the company commander and three platoons of 4 tanks each therefore for a total of 13 tanks per company. A variant was practiced for the battalions already present in AS which were initially structured around three companies but without flamethrower platoons and therefore with 46 L tanks each. With the arrival of the Ariete division which instead had the divisional structure of a mixed regiment with three L tank battalions in two companies and one M tank battalion in three, the L tanks still active in AS (in spring 1941) were redefined by dividing them into two companies each of 13 L tanks and a command company with 4 L tanks and 8 flamethrower L tanks. Many times in even official texts companies are indicated with 15 tanks supplied, this is because many times even the reserve tanks were decentralized to the individual companies, resulting in an increase of tanks in the individual platoons from 4 to 5 also taking into account the redistribution of the company command tank.
All the best
Maurizio
Thank you very much, how about markings of these Lf tanks? If they were issued to btn command, then should they wear a black rectangle for btn HQ company? I've also met TOE that listed the 4 Lf tanks as 4th platoon in each company and additional 4 in HQ, I assume that it's incorrect?
I've also found photo (attached) of such L tanks with "LF" letters on (I assume) company rectangle. Was it just a 31st regiment thing, or regular marking for Lanciafiamme platoons?
 

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Keep in mind that in addition to the units present in AS throughout the course of the conflict there were independent units formed both with normal L tanks and with flamethrower L tanks especially in the Balkans..... therefore we need to examine these photos carefully before saying where they come from and maybe which unit they belonged to....
All the best
Maurizio
 
Then also keep in mind that there were quite a few "ad hoc" variants made in the field, therefore it could also be that the equipment of the 4 flamethrower tanks were queued up to the individual companies... in the Royal Army camp during the 2nd World War nothing needs to be ruled out.....however your photo seems to be either in Italy or in the Balkans....
All the best
Maurizio
 

Kustosz2137

New Member
Then also keep in mind that there were quite a few "ad hoc" variants made in the field, therefore it could also be that the equipment of the 4 flamethrower tanks were queued up to the individual companies... in the Royal Army camp during the 2nd World War nothing needs to be ruled out.....however your photo seems to be either in Italy or in the Balkans....
All the best
Maurizio
The location of the photo is defienietly Europe, vechicles pictured here belonged to III Battaglione of the 31º Reggimento, you can see both regimental and battalion markings on the back plates of the L3.

Here's similar one taken in Rjeka 1941, vechicles wear markings of the I Battaglione, 33º Reggimento and they lack the "LF" plate.
 

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Kustosz2137

New Member
And another one, this time from French campaign 1940. Vehicles belong to II Battaglione of 33º Reggimento. This time they seems to wear regular platoon stripes, although barely visible.
 

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