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Cannone da 65/17 modello 13 and the EP round

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
Not sure anyone can help. This was discussed in the original CS forum. I tried to recover that thread, but failed. IIRC, there is very little detail on the EP round and even less on the EPS.

Cappellano states the EP was a chemical energy warhead with a rear mounted fuse. EPS-42 used a special spherical primer mounted on a warhead of German design (p. 260). P. 296 states a unit of fire was 250 rounds; of which 2/3 were ordinary and 1/3 was EP.
 

Brady

New Member
Interesting presumably when it was issued with the EP round they stopped issuing the normal AP round ? (or the Ordinary allotment included the AP round)
 

Brady

New Member
It weould just seam reasionable to assume that if the gun was deployed "up front" in a direct fire role either defensively or offensively that they would have on hand more AP or EP's rounds or as many of the later as they could lay there hands on, but early in the war given the fairly week nature of British armor, except the Matty, the standard AP round was effective, its that the above allotment of ammo is a bit vague.
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
While it isn't specifically stated in the source, I have always assumed that the unit of fire info is for 1943, so later in the war. EP was generally not available until 1942, so any UNFOC table with EP can't be from 1940-41. I would assume that the 1/3 EP would be met by either EP rounds, or if not available, proietti perforanti (AP). So 2/3 HE, 1/3 some type of c.c. round (PP or EP).

In 1940, it is like the same UNFOC was in place. Note that the UNFOC is not necessarily what was carried with the gun. UNFOC is a planning tool for anticipating consumption in a theater. If the theater command decided that the UNFOC on hand in A.S. is 4, the Intendenza would need to maintain 667 HE and 333 PP/EP rounds per gun in theater (a total of 1000 ads, or 4 x 250). If the planners decided that they will expend 10 UNFOC over the course of a future operation, then the Intendenza would need to requisition/stockpile a total of 2.500 round per each 65/17 gun in theater.

A basic load is what is carried with the gun/unit trains. A division commander might decide that the mix of HE and PP is different from the UNFOC as his plan might anticipant the guns doing more/less firing of certain types of rounds. A 65/17 operating in the mountains likely doesn't need PP.

EP was available in spring 1942 and was issued to units in Russia and A.S. (Cappellano p. 259).
 

Brady

New Member
While its my understanding that was more or less universally true for several different guns, what's confusing is that it was available according to what I have read both on this forum and on AH's forum that the, for example, 47/32 had it in late 40 and some others around the first part 41 (?) Unless I am mistaken ?
 

Dili

Member
No EP in 1940 or 1941 earlier 41. I have seen no instance of their reported use all 1941 but it is possible they had some for testing in field by second half of 1941.
 

sultanbev

New Member
For what it's worth, I have the following penetration values and dates for Italian EP HEAT rounds:
47/32 4cm/90* out to 1300m (from April 1942)
65/17 4cm/90* out to 1500m (from march 1942)
75/18 7cm/90* out to 1000m (from October 1942)
75/27 7cm/90* out to 1000m (from March 1942)
75/34 7cm/90* out to 1500m (1943?)
100/17 12cm/90* out to 1500m (March 1942)

Taken from my wargames rules, where I use vertical armour (line of site) armour thicknesses, in centimetres, with #8mm or #9mm rounded up.
Eg 4cm might mean 38mm to 47mm actual penetration.

I've nver published the rules, but they have been in use since 1989. They will be part of the MicroMark army list collection, and use the morale and training values on those lists (available on the Wargame Vault). The data I've collected will be licensed to a set of rules called World in Conflict that are coming out this year.
Listing all the sources would take the rest of my life to go back and find out!

Mark
 
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jwsleser

Member
Staff member
Thanks! Which rules are these? Do your rules list the sources used to develop the rules? You can edit you answer into your message above.

Grazie!
 

David Wormell

New Member
Hi Mark.

Some of your dates seem a bit early to me...
65/17. 05/42.
75/27. 07/42.
100/17. 08/42.

But perhaps I am wrong? Can anyone confirm?
 

Brady

New Member
It's a bit baffling that it's this hard to find well referenced performance data for the guns that fired an EP round, From Above, is this a complete list of the guns that fired them ?


47/32 4cm/90* out to 1300m (from April 1942)
65/17 4cm/90* out to 1500m (from march 1942)
75/18 7cm/90* out to 1000m (from October 1942)
75/27 7cm/90* out to 1000m (from March 1942)
75/34 7cm/90* out to 1500m (1943?)
100/17 12cm/90* out to 1500m (March 1942)
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
I would need to dig to see if dates are good. Penetration and fielding of EP, EPS have been discussed numinous times on numerous forums with no firm conclusions.

Pista! Jeff
 

WAKEN

New Member
Hi Jeff, do you have the UNFOC for other weapons: the 47/32, 75/27, 20/65 and 90/53 in particular?

Cheers
 
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