Decima Mas Impression

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By ctschatz » Fri May 08, 2009 2:06 pm

Hello all;
I had a couple of questions about Decima MAS uniforms and equipment for the reenactor.
1. Did the Decima MAS use the tropical version of the para uniform or was it just the wool?
2. In most pics it looks like they were only armed with sub guns did they use carcano or 98ks also?
3. For enlisted was it just the anchor or was it the eagle/wreath/anchor?
4. What is the difference between the red, white, and blue mostrine?

I am really just restarting my italian impression and want to get it right this time, most events are post 43 and Decima MAS has really caught my attention. I have ordered a copy of Black Prince and the Sea Devilsand have been trying to get more info from a reenactor viability stand point.
Christian

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by milice » Fri May 08, 2009 5:35 pm

1.) They used both but mostly wool M-41 uniforms. If it was too hot they would take off the tunic and use the M1935 work shirt

2.)They did mostly use MABs but some did use Carcanos , but NOT the carbine w/foldout bayonet

3.)EM used the anchor but the eagle/wreath was given out late in the war to the Marines

4.)Red mostrine is the standard once used. The blue ones were given out late in the war after summer of '44,
White is for Flotiglla units only,(assault boats and midget submarines), and yellow is for artillery.

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by Tehmugin » Sun May 10, 2009 4:55 am

ctschatz,

I read your post on Decima MAS. I, too, have just started to put that impression together. I also have done French Foreign Legion and 517 RCT. I though we might connect as we are building this kit. If interested, e-mail me at koba@comcast.net.

Thanks,
Tehmugin

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by milice* » Sun May 10, 2009 9:33 pm

Ctschatz,

I have read Black Prince and the Sea Devils and I recomend it for basic understanding of the Decima. I won't give anything away
but one thing I found interesting about Borghese's Decima is that they were NOT fascist.

Mike/Milice

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by glenning » Mon May 11, 2009 3:32 am

Ctschatz,

From Osprey's The Italian Army 1940-45 (3) Italy 1943-45:

The most popular uniform worn by the Xa MAS volunteers was the M1941 wool tunic and loose trousers as worn before 1943 by Italian paratroopers. All ranks wore a blu-painted metal shield on the left sleeve; this featured a large red 'X' or 'Xa' Below a skull with a rose in its teeth, above a yellow legend - initially 'X Flottiglia Mas' adn later 'Xa Divisione'. The design of the badge differed slightly from unit to unit but all were basically similar. Each battalion of the division had its own individual badge, usually worn above the left breast pocket. Collar patches were in different colours, and bore upper symbols, depending on the unit's role: Assault Bns - white, with anchor; Artillery - yellow, with anchor, Infantry - initially red, later blu, with lion of St Mark; and Autonomus Bns - blue, with anchor. The RSI wreathed sword was worn at the bottom of all patches. Headgear was either a grey-green wool beret with gold anchor badge, or the M1933 steel helmet with a stenciled anchor on the front. Some units sported other 'decals' on the helmet; these included a version of the arm shield, or simply 'Xa Mas' stencilled in red.

Some plates from Guido Rosignoli's superb book RSI uniformi, distintivi, equipaggiamento e armi 1943-1945;
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e299/ ... ima1-1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e299/ ... ima2-1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e299/ ... ima3-1.jpg


Hope this helps!
:wink:
 

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By ctschatz » Mon May 11, 2009 8:40 am

Thanks for all the help guys. It looks like this impression will take some time to get it right, but as the reenacting season is over here in TX till late in the year I can use that time to get the parts together. I will post pics when I have updates on my progress.
Christian

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by glenning » Mon May 11, 2009 9:37 am

No problem!
:)
Chen has the basic stuff(beret, M41 jacket and trousers);
http://stores.ebay.com/ANT-Z-MILITARY

Insignia:
http://www.fregi.it/mostrine-italia.html

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by Bob Starr » Wed May 13, 2009 5:42 am

CIao Christian. In dealing with the Decima Mas you run into a quandry when dealing with uniforms. Those that were accepted into Decima Mas were allowed to retain their own previous uniforms and equipment. I have a book on the Decima Mas and the pictures are many and varied. Bersaglieri were allowed their unique plumes and fez, Alpini were allowed their headgear and penne, M33 helmets were pretty standard, San Marco Maros (marines) were allowed their naval uniforms, M41 style uniforms were made from the telo M29 material and used by numerous elements, older M40 tunics and pantaloons were worn with both leather and wool leggings. I guess what I'm trying to get at is it depends alot which element of the Decima Mas you choose to portray which type of uniform you need to go with. I hope this helps some. Bob Starr

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by milice* » Wed May 13, 2009 4:04 pm

That unit served in north eastern Italy and westers Slovenia only. If you want to do a frontline Decima unit it has to be
either "Barbarigo" or "Lupo". Battaglione "Barbarigo" fought at Nettuno in response to the allied landing at Anzio. Battaglione
"Lupo" served on the Gothic Line.

Milice

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by milice* » Wed May 27, 2009 5:15 pm

Excillent news! I heard from Chen that he will be saelling the camo smock used by the "Decima". For
any of you who want to reenact this unit the smock is almost a must! The way you can tell it's the
"Decima" style is because it has that "sahriana"-style cape on the shoulders.

Milice
 
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by milice* » Sat May 30, 2009 11:48 am

At the moment there ae no pictures so I guess you can call it a rumor. But Chen has been pretty solid with
making what he says going to make. If the camo looks good then I'm sure he can make other garments
from the camo.

Milice
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by larrusso » Sat May 30, 2009 12:18 pm

I presume then that someone has sent him patterns for the m29 camo and the Decima jacket itself.
I know he will produce m40 officers tunics and trousers as well as m39 shirts as iI have sent him originals to reproduce.
I have to commend him on his communication as he replies to all my emails.
Very positive I think.
Now what else do we need.
'Moderator'
Need to stick/create this thread to a new 'Chen' thread .
Lot of traffic regarding 'Chen' and his work.
Keep on Italian reenacting...........!
Mike

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by milice* » Sun May 31, 2009 10:34 pm

Larusso,

I don't know if he has in mind to reproduce an M-41 jacket out of camo. If you
mean the Decima smock then yes. I sent him that a while back.

But I am in agreement with you as far as Chen's polite and very fast replies.
HKK doesn't even answer any of his e-mails anymore,(and if it's because he
has a new one then that just reminds me of another con-artist vendor we used to
go through a long time ago).

One thing's for sure, Chen is interested in ideas of making different Italian garments.
It used to be we would all just talk about reenacting Italian. Now there are two kinds
of reenactors: the ones who just talk and talk about doing it and the ones who are actually
out there doing it.

Millice

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by butcherboy1 » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:16 pm

Hi Guys
I need some help,
What did the Decima units wear in terms of web equipment at the Anzio/Nettuno front?
was it the specialist mab case? or chest rig for Mab38's
Thanks for any info
Steve

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by milice* » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:05 pm

Steve,

Its sounds like you just want to know which ammo pouch you need to use for and MAB 38.
Well for a Maro,(Marine) of the Barbario battalion then you the warp-around case with the
straight-mag pouches. The Barbarigo,(Decima) was at Nettuno.

Milice
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by butcherboy1 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:48 am

Milice
Thanks again, i've got the chest rig affair that i picked up from Steve Kiddle of Pegasus.
will now have to try ( possibly in vain!! lol) for the wrap case. i thought that might be the 'case'!!
:lol:

no pun intended
steve
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by milice* » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:32 pm

Hey Steve,

Your welcome. I know the feeling on this stuff, (sometimes I want to go back in time and tell
all the Decima "just use the chest-rig for everyone! Bye!") I was wanting to do Decima for
a long time but just too much to pull off. Which one of the chest rigs did you get? The 5-mag or 12-mag? Funny thing about
those chest-pouches,(samuri) is that out of all the photographs I've seen, the 5-mag seems
to have been used by mostly of "Brigate Nere" units,("Marcaello Turschetti" and "Ettore Muti di
Milano"). The 12-mag ones used only by the Decima and Folgore/Nembo. Of course there are
some photos of some GNR cadets in training using them and the one of a "IX Settembre" guy
using one.

When you do an RSI impression, you have to stick to one unit and find as many pics of that
unit to get an idea of the authenticity. Divisione Decima is a good impression to follow
because for the most part you can get away with doing battalion just by switching the unit
breast-badge. But again, there are certain little things that will be different so look carefully.
If you're doing "Barbarigo" for the Nettuno front then you can get away with and anchor-decal.
If you're doing, let us say "Fulmine" then best to take it off.

Good luck!

Milice

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by ctschatz » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:20 pm

Guys;
I have decided on an Engineer impression and have been doing research and have a couple more questions.
I have found that there were a couple of engineer units the "Freccia" engineer Bn. 1st Co. and "Valanga" assault engineer battalion. From what I can find the "Valanga" were mostly Guastatori from all over and a few infantry engineers and new recruits. They eventually became the "Tarigo" then went back to being "Valanga". From what I have read they resented the loss of their Alpini hats and got them back when they went back to being the "Valanga". So my questions are:
What did they wear when they didn't have the Alpini caps?
What collar tabs did they where? The red ones with the gladio and lion?
Did they keep there engineer cap badge? If not what did they wear?

I seem to be able to find more info on the "Valanga" than the "Freccia" is there a reason for that?
Any help will be great.
Thanks;
Christian
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by milice* » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:31 pm

Ctschatz,

Well the "Freccia" unit was small because they were engineers. There was even 4 of them attached to Btg."Fulmine". The
basic uniform of Btg. "Valanga" is the M-41 wool uniform but instead of the beret to wear you have to wear the "alpini" cap
with feather and the standard REI eagle insignia. As for the helmet it is the M-33 with grey-green paint. and a single feather
for the side.
But you have to understand that the "Valanga" was stationed in Slovenia for the most part. Their biggest contribution
came when they participated in fighting the 9th Korpus of Tito's partisans at Tarnova relieving Btg. "Fulmine". The town
was encircled by 1400 partisans for 2 days and almost destroyed. I know this battle well because it is what got me into
Italian military history and then reenacting. My biggest honor was going to the Decima reunion in 2004 and meeting
the veterans in Salo.
Btg."Valanga" is a pretty rare unit, and that's saying something since the Decima itself is rare. If you are doing this impression for
a living history display then great. As far as reenacting it, I don't know of anybody reenacting Italian or Jugoslav partisan.

(I plan on going on a camping/hiking trip next year dressed as Brigate Nere Mobili "Leonessa" soldier with some
friends of mine.)

Milice
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by milice* » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:48 pm

The answer is no. I think those are postwar pouches for the Garand. I know the pouches,(and photo) you arte looking at. Recently I have
seen some picture of a reenactor who wore a reproduction set. I'm not sure but I think it was done by Remo. He's your best shot:

www.sartoriaequipe.com/

If not then just stick to the grey-green leather bandolier rig.

Milice
 

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by ctschatz » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:57 am

That is why I try to ask before I buy, been burned too many times before. Buying stuff that is wrong or cheap and then finding out that it was no good. Thanks for the advice.
Christian

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by butcherboy1 » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:12 am

Milice
Glad you know what they were... i thought that they could be British. but definitely not Italian.
steve
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by milice* » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:17 pm

Hey Steve,

I'm not sure what pouches they are but I do know what there are not. They are not war-time pouches that I know
of. I've burned too on a lot of stuff like post war M-35 gas mask bags. One thing that is a good sighn to tell war-time
gear from post war is that grey-green,(grigioverde) leather. The REI from day one seems to have been obsessed with that
color for everything. I'm actually surprised they didn't do their M-1912 boots in grey-green

Milice
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by arditi1917 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:18 pm

I was wondering if the Xmas had a paratrooper unit or if that was another naval unit? Also is there a good book on the Xmas that explains the different BN and OOB?

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by mauser98 » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:41 am

I'm also interested in putting together a DECIMA MAS kit myself. Chen's M41 uniform looks pretty good and I plan on ordering one. I purchased a pair of SMW Italian Camo trousers (without the German style patch pocket on the left thigh). I painted up a nice camo helmet with the "X" markings and have the basic field gear. The tough part is finding a repro wrap style double magazine pouch worn by many XMAS marines. Folgore shop is making them now and is beautiful, but they are super expensive. Is there anyone else out there reproducing them??? Finally, any luck in getting patterns or measurements on the distinctive camo smock they wore?? Anyone making them?

Thanks for the help,
mauser98
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by butcherboy1 » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:39 pm

Mauser98,
Could you put up a link for the MAB case?
I'd like to see it
Cheers
Steve
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by mauser98 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:22 am

Steve,
I found it on ebay here in the US. The seller goes by the name durelex. The business is the Folgoreshop and the number where it is shown is # 360222272196. The folgoreshop is reproing the XMAS camo smock and the double magazine wrap around pouch is displayed on the manikin. Both items are very expensive. He wants 380,00 Euros for the magazine rig and 340,00 Euros for the smock.
If we can find someone who has a real one (or even a good repro) we probably can entice someone to make up a group order if guys are interested.
I did a search a few years ago that showed a big RSI display in Japan. It had a Decima Mas manikin with the wrap around webbing and then a solo photo of the webbing layed out by itself. The site is now gone and I can't track it down. Does anyone have a good shot of the rig on its own?
Let me know what you think,
Jim
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by butcherboy1 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:46 am

Hi Jim,
i checked out the link, and its a damn fine smock. well beyond my price tag sadly.... would finish off my Decima nicely, but if you check out the posts concerning RSI Decima, you'll see we all want a smock
:D

As to the MAB belt, it also looks good, but the shoulder strap is of leather in the originals. I and Milice have done a little digging on this via pm's, and concluded that this was the case ( no pun intended)
:D

I have a case but it is a repro we made within the group. Supermario constructed it after getting a mass of info from contacts in Europe, as well as photographic evidence.
check this link to see some photo's we had done at a public show

http://wwiireenacting.co.uk/forum/viewt ... &start=128

Steve
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by larrusso » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:04 am

Such a comfortable uniform.
Mike
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by mauser98 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:30 pm

Steve,
Great photos! The MAB case is the way to go.

Jim
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by mauser98 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:02 am

Ok guys,
I contacted Chen regarding him producing a Decima Mas style camo smock for all of us who have been looking for one that is made from more authentic lookng cloth. He replied right away and requires some photos of the smock and details.
:D

So for those of you who are advanced collectors and may have one or even have a good repro and want to upgrade to one of better material, we'll need your help. If you have good photographs of the smock so he can study it, that would be very helpful. Folgoreshop as I posted is now making one but is extremely expensive. This could be our best alternative. Anyone interested????
:?:
A group order may worth considering.
All for now,
Jim


"Dear Mauser98
thanks very much sir
Can you show me the photos?
best regards
Chen"


- pirschen1975
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by mauser98 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:55 am

I received 2 more emails from Chen regarding the camo Decima Mas uniform. He is willing to make it but needs details and accurate photos. This is an good opportunity. Those of you that already have this uniform can really help those of us who do not and need one. I (we) would appreciate you taking the time to help us out. What say you?
mauser98

Dear mauser98,

thanks very much sir
we need very detailed photos
best regards
Chen


- pirschen1975
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by Onore » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:53 am

hello all,

Im new to posting on these boards but Ive stalked the heck out of them for many many months now. ; ) Ive put together a Decima MAS uniform and have a few questions for anyone with the time and inclination...

1. white collar tabs for la Decima MAS - Assault battalion? Anyone able to describe a bit more what an 'assault battalion' would entail? Im a huge fan of their exploits in enemy harbors and was hoping it would somehow be linked to this...

2.I know many members of Decima MAS came from other units after the armistice. As I am fond of the blackshirt MVSN units as well, I was hoing I could attach a skull emblem to my left breastpocket of my Decima jacket (as though a former MVSN member or die hard fascist chose to continue to fight under the RSI Decima MAS). Good idea or just terrible inaccuracy?

3. Heres a list of items I have for my uniform. Im hoping Im pretty close to the mark. My references have been a wide assortment of photos and print material, but as Im not in the reenactment circle (yet) Ive had to go based solely on my research...

headgear:
-rsi x decima mas basco da ufficiale sottopanno azzurro (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT)
-m33 helmet

jacket:
- M41 tropical para collarless jacket with white collar tabs
- sweater with rolled neck

pants:
- German M41 Italian Camo Trousers

boots:
- still working on them. right now have a pair of dark brown low cut boots, dark brown in color

weapons:
- fascist fighting knife (repro)
- carcano rifle (original)

Thanks in advance for any advice you guys can offer!
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by mauser98 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:49 am

Chen emailed me and said he is going to make the smock, but not for some time. I've heard that he recently partnered with Hessen Antiques in the US to sell his uniforms. So I'm sure all new projects will be delayed for abit.
Also not sure if he was able to get more information on details as he requested or even another original smock in his hands to inspect. My guess would be no.
None the less, if he makes them (correctly) it would be good. It will hopefully lead to possibly para smocks and shelter halves.
We'll just have to wait & see what develops.
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by glenning » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:30 am

Onore wrote:
2.I know many members of Decima MAS came from other units after the armistice. As I am fond of the blackshirt MVSN units as well, I was hoing I could attach a skull emblem to my left breastpocket of my Decima jacket (as though a former MVSN member or die hard fascist chose to continue to fight under the RSI Decima MAS). Good idea or just terrible inaccuracy?
Good idea and not inaccurate at all! This was very popular during the RSI-period. I've also seen photos of soldiers wearing the Emme Rossa of the MVSN "M" Battalions on their breast(not just GNR but bersaglieri and Xmas men as well).
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by Onore » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:15 pm

glenning wrote:
Onore wrote:
2.I know many members of Decima MAS came from other units after the armistice. As I am fond of the blackshirt MVSN units as well, I was hoing I could attach a skull emblem to my left breastpocket of my Decima jacket (as though a former MVSN member or die hard fascist chose to continue to fight under the RSI Decima MAS). Good idea or just terrible inaccuracy?
Good idea and not inaccurate at all! This was very popular during the RSI-period. I've also seen photos of soldiers wearing the Emme Rossa of the MVSN "M" Battalions on their breast(not just GNR but bersaglieri and Xmas men as well).
Fantastic! Thats good news to hear - Thanks! Do you know anything about the roles of assault craft, torpedo boats, assault divers, etc in the RSI Decima MAS? Ive heard that the Decima was almost entirely infantry in the RSI period. Ive read the book SEA DEVILS, but that account ends abruptly at the time of the armistice.

Ive found vague references to the Decima continuing to have some sort of Naval presence though, and the white collar tabs for the uniform seem to further support that...

Anything more concrete would be appreciated. My goal is to have a Decima uniform with the white collar tabs - mostly on account that Im an avid swimmer and have lived near the ocean all my life, hence that aspect is what appeals to me the most!
:D

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by arditi1917 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:38 am

I would be interested in linking up with others putting together a kit for Xmas my main interest are The NP and Barbarigo and Lupo BN's Just PM me but it might take me a min to reply.
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by glenning » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:02 pm

I was just wondering if men of the "Barbarigo" used german weapons like K98's and MG42's at Anzio/Nettuno ?
And they didn't wear the Xa Mas shield during this time, right?
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by milice* » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:13 pm

Ciao Glenning,

I'm not sure about German weapons being used by Barbarigo at the Nettuno/Anzio front. I know later on the Decima would see more use of German weapons ,(like Btg."Lupo" using some K-98s and MG-42s). But as far as the Nettuno front goes, only seen M-37s being used fgor support machine guns.

As for the Decima shield being worn by Btg."Barbarigo" at the Nettuno front? I have only seen officers wearing the shield. Enlisted men and NCOs did not wear the shield. This was I think due to the fact that the Decima was really just getting started to see action. Btg. "Barbarigo" was actually Btg. "Mastraelle",(sorry about the spelling) before they arrived in Rome. After the parade in Rome,(which I'm sure you have seent he pictures with the moscot kids and dog) they were sent to the front line in civilian buses as Btg. "Barbarigo". I forget the reason on why their name was changed.

Anyway, I hope I helped somewhat camerata.

milice*
 

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by glenning » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:57 am

Another question; which kind of beret badge would be correct for a sergente of the Barbarigo at the Anzio/Nettuno front? The eagle with laurel wreath and anchor, a lion of San Marco or just an anchor? Grazie!

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by milice* » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:49 pm

Salve Glenning,

For a Decima marine at the Nettuno/Anzio front I would just go with the anchor pin.
For officers, the anchor surrounded by wreath with the "Savoy" crown cut off was used a lot
by the "Barbarigo" officers. The 'eagle/anchor' badge came in later in the Summer and Fall of 1944.
(Even then, they were not issued to all Decima battalions).

Hope I helped a bit,

milice*
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by milice* » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:28 pm

Ciao Glenning,

First off sorry about my spelling in that last answer,(was in a rush). Glad to help you anytime camerata. RSI stuff is tricky just because for a lot of units there were not that many standards. I know I have said this before but it is important to put out. REI units were given standard equipment and weapons. For RSI it is so important to look at as many photos as possible to see what was used. Luckily the Decima division has been widely photographed so it is one of the units of the RSI you can pull off pretty well. But again, it's about the photos and of course the time period. It is weird that I say time period cause the RSI lasted only 600 days. But lots of units seem to have had a lot of insignia change in those 600 days.

milice*
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by glenning » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:24 am

Yes, it's really a jungle out there when it comes to RSI units and their insignia! And as you say, the best way to get an authentic impression is too look at as many photos as possible of a particular unit. Another great source for reference is Guido Rosignolis RSI book, as every illustration is based on a period photo. Another interesting thing is that literature and memoirs about the 600 days of RSI seem
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by milice* » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:30 pm

Glenning, I'm sure your "Barbarigo" impression will be fantastic. The photos are important and should be used but not all the time can they answer your questions. The main is color; like the Decima (IN SOME) units started switching to the blue "mostrine" (collar tabs) in the summer of 1944 and later. But again, they were not issued to all marines. And for more extreme example there is a certain brigade of the GNR that wore brown colored M-41 uniforms,(the "Folgore" style). Thanks to the internet and Google I have learned a lot in the last 10 years of just doing a lot of comparing photos.

Anyway, like I said before Decima is good to reenact just because out of all the RSI units, it's just been documented more. Plus for the most part they stuck to a basic uniform, equipment, and weapons. But even this division cannot escape obscurity that is RSI
:lol:
On eof the hardest problems is the use of weapons. For the most part they used the MAB '38.
This is just fact and I have gotten use to that. Again, I have seen photos of ceratin units where I see a lot of short rifles and long rifles of the Carcano make,(no carbines with fold-out bayonets though). Btg."Valange and Btg."Fulmine" I have seen use the long rifle with grey-green leather bandoliers used. The same was used a lot by the "Flotiglla" units,(the cool-looking guys with the white collar tabs who use the torpedo boats and midget subs). And I have seen a good deal of men from Btg. "Lupo" on the Gothic Line,(Garfagnia) use that long rifle. But the MAB 38 was the most used and I'm not the MAB was used in the full-auto mode that most people would think. A collector friend of mine told me that he thinks that Decima,(and the rest of the RSI) used the MAB in a carbine capacity. This would make sense since a lot of RSI men issued an MAB do not wear ammo pouches. So the men would use the semi-auto selection and only in an emergency full auto would be used. Still this is just an idea,(and one I think I posted before). I'm not sure. Okay, too much babble. Hope it goes well for you.



A presto!

milice*
to be far more common than literature about the previous 20 years of fascism.

Anyway, for my Anzio/Nettuno Barbarigo NCO impression the following uniform combo seems pretty accurate;
M41 beret with an anchor.
M41 uniform with collar insignia and sergente-patches, no Xa Mas shield.
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by glenning » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:03 pm

Just found out that a member of our sister unit here in Sweden actually purchased a MAB not long ago! Hopefully I can hire it at our event this spring, if not I'll have to do with a K98 or an MG42 and P38 as there aren't any Italian weapons available.
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by mauser98 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

Excellent information milice! I too along with Glenning am putting together a XMAS NCO impression during the Anzio/Nettuno Campaign. I see now that I must change beret insignia to an anchor. Mine has the embroidered eagle, wreath and anchor. Do you mean that the small anchor that is pinned in the center of the wreath is just used or is it a completely different anchor pin?
I'm disapointed that the arm shield was not worn by NCO's & EM's till later during this period.. I find it a very cool piece of insignia. But if it wasn't worn, I will not put it on.
I have a MAB38a and I have a friend slowly working on making the wrap around double magazine pouch for me, with grateful thanks to Steve Lawrence for sending me some great photos. My friend is also making me the camo smock. Another project that is taking forever but will be worth the wait. Hessen Antiques will hopefully have the wool M41 uniforms in over the winter and I can complete the whole impression.
Glenning......I'm following your lead on this, so keep me posted on your progress.
Did other XMAS units fight against American & British forces besides Barbarigo?
Grazie,
Jim
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by glenning » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:20 pm

Yes, I'm pretty sure that it's the small anchor!
Ah sounds great, yes I'd also like to see the M41 in stock. I bought one a year ago, but I need to get one for my friend so I hope they have them in stock before april 2011, hopefully they will!

Hm, I think some of the other battalions fought them, some of them at the Gothic Line if I'm not mistaken?
Milice?
:wink:


DECIMA!
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by milice* » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:35 pm

Hi Jim, I wish the Decima wore the shield too. It was pretty interesting when I found out through photographs.

As far as other battalions of Decima fighting Americans and British? The only other I can think of for sure is Btg."Lupo". They saw a lot of action on the Gothic Line by the Senio River. (There's actually a good interview with a vet on YouTube from this battalion.) Also, there was the NP Battalion that did some sabotage behind enemy lines around Rimini.

Also, I wanted to mention that as far as elmetti,(helmets) go, the "Barbarigo" battalion had a regular paint job of grey-green with a yellow anchor stenciled on the front.

And one more fact I found out about the Decima that I found interesting... There was a big turn-out for enlistment into the Decima when they started. A lot, but not all were ex Italian Navy. Including a lot of officers. But because all the officer ranks were filled up a lot of former REI Naval officers had to take lower ranks in order to join. This would make sense since in a lot of the photos of the Btg."Barbarigo",(the photos were taken in Rome before leaving for the Nettuno Front) show a lot of men wearing ribbon-bars on their tunics but show ranks of enlisted men.

Good luck and can't wait to see you guys pull this off. You're in good hands with Glenning.

milice*
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by glenning » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:55 am

Thanks once again!

Yes, I've also noticed that virtually every soldier of the Barbarigo wore a helmet with a stencil with a yellow anchor(without the royal crown). I guess I have to get another helmet then, but you can't have too many M33's!
8)

I've also seen Barbarigo soldiers with helmet netting and the "classic" field-camo coat of mud on their helmets.

According to Wikipedia, "Barbarigo" took the name of a U-boat.
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by arditi1917 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:57 pm

Here are some good pictures of the Lupo Battaglione.. From the look of it they had a small amount of tanks as well. All I did to find the photos. Was to do a search in google images in order to come up with all of this. These photos are all available from various web sites on the web. I have not been able to confirm whether or not all of the photos are of the Lupo Battaglione.
l6battaglionelupoatorinzt6.jpg
laspezia.jpg

il-battaglione-lupo-in-partenza-per-il-fronte.jpg

Letter written 12 March 1944 from a maro' of the 1st Company of the “Lupo Battalion”
lupo1.jpg

Dec 1943
dicembre-1943-la-spezia.jpg

Saturday, 25 November 1944 - Year XXIII THE MEN OF BATTALION “LUPO”
corrsera copia.jpg
lupobb5.jpg
 

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by milice* » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:10 pm

Nice find Arditi. Never seen Btg."Lupo" with a tank. Not many tanks were issued tanks and if so they were light-medium types. There is the acception, like Btg/"Leonessa" and one other I can't remember the name too well,(something like "Difesa Costiera"? ) The photo of them with the rucksacks on is taken in Milan around the same time the battle
at Nettuno/Anzio was taking place. It's actually a clip from a newsreel in which Prince Borghese himself is reviewing that battalion. And although I'm not sure if it's the same reel, I know there is some footage with Borghese and Mussolini talking together. This is especially interesting since Mussolini did not care for Borghese and the Decima. The reason why,(if your interested
:lol:
) is that the Decima was not fascist. And since Borghese put his own money and wealth in the actual division, they were able to afford the better weapons, uniforms, and equipment.

Sorry for ranting...

Sempre Decima!

milice*
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by mauser98 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:57 pm

Glenning,
Do you have a source for the anchor pin? I know specialstore-it has an embroidered anchor patch for the beret.
I just want to get the correct insignia.
Thanks very much,
Jim
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by glenning » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:57 pm

Take a look at www.fregi.it or www.filatelicafiorentina.com!

Hope this helps!
 
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