Posted 08 June 2007 - 03:14 PM by colinsb
Can anyone help me with a couple of problems I have.
Firstly, I'm am trying to recreate the Littorio Division in 15mm for FoW and cannot find a company level OOB for them, I have found the Niehorster website which gives me some detail, can anyone point me to a more detailed source.
Secondly, does anyone know what the divisional "logo" was, I have found the Rams Head for Ariete and the centaur for "Centauro" but cannot find out what Littorio used.
Posted 08 June 2007 - 07:49 PM by Lupo Solitario
All units in the desert had a...very mobile OOB :wink: You should first try to fix a reference date.
the logo is curious cause AFAIK italian divisions in WWII had no one...could you show us what you have found? :?:
Posted 11 June 2007 - 07:58 AM by colinsb
Was looking at El Alamein as the reference date before they became integrated into the Ariete Division.
Perhaps logo was the wrong word, I know Ariete had a ram's head on their shoulder patch, it was what Littori used that I'm trying to find.
Posted 11 June 2007 - 01:54 PM by voloire
AFAIK during the WWII italian division just use a badge with a "gladio" (roman sword), the number and the name of division....symbols were used later…..
any comments?
Posted 11 June 2007 - 04:20 PM by Lupo Solitario
in order:
the OOB of Littorio at Alamein was, AFAIK:
HQ
III Novara armored recon battalion
133rd Tank Regiment on medium tank battalions IV, XII and LI
12th motorized Bersaglieri regiment on battalions XXI, XXIII and XXXVI
133rd motorized artillery regiment (no data about composition)
for what concerns symbols...italian army had cancelled sleeve shields in 1940 and before they had more or less the shape described by Voloire.
If you refer to this shield, I'm sorry but it's post-1948
Attached File(s)
scud_cor_ariete.jpeg (I wasn't able to get the attachment)
Posted 11 June 2007 - 10:59 PM by david
ote
I think that there was also a Misto Genio unit. Some sources say Battaglione, others Compagnia. Possibly numbered 33.
The Artillery Regiment was of 2 x Gruppi, each of 12 x 75/27.
I also have 2x20mm CA Batteries.
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 13 June 2007 - 09:01 AM by colinsb
Thx for this info. Good to know my search for the divisional symbol was fruitless because it didn't exist in '42 :lol:
Did the Lancieri Novara use L6/40s or AB41s? I can't find much info on them.
Posted 13 June 2007 - 03:29 PM by Lupo Solitario
L6/40. three squadroni for a total of 52 tanks AFAIK
Posted 13 June 2007 - 10:25 PM by david
Agreed!
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 15 February 2010 - 12:14 PM by david
A number of illustrations by Don Greer (but not photos) in Nicola Pignato's book "Italian medium Tanks in action" show Ariete tanks with black stencilled rams heads similar to the above. But I too had always assumed it was a post world war II symbol.
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 17 February 2010 - 04:34 PM Lupo Solitario
anyway only on vehicles in a black/white drawing...no item for uniform in any way. Again, I've never understood if it was official or born between servicemen...
Posted 01 August 2010 - 04:15 PM by Arietil
In Nicola (Nick) Piganto’s recent book on the Italian Semovente, he has a WWII picture with the ram stenciled on it. I also have a Semovente photo with the same stencil but blurred from1942. (he considered using the photo in the book). He said it was rare to find such photos from North Africa. He said the practice was started in North Africa by the members of the Ariete to differentiate themsleves from the Littorio Armored Division after there arrival in theatre. This was only on vehicles not on uniforms as Lupo stated.
Posted 01 August 2010 - 04:20 PM by david
Very interesting!
Thank you.
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:44 AM by Oasis
Lupo Solitario said:
On 29 october 1942 the artillery of Littorio is:
3° Reggimento Artiglieria Celere (Col. A. Villani): 5 Gruppi of 3 Batterie each, assigned to 133^ Littorio:
- Comando con batteria reggimentale (un plotone con sez. osservazione, calibrazione, segnali e riserva);
- Gruppo II/3° Artiglieria Celere (12 cann. 75/27 su batterie 1-2-3);
- Gruppo CCCXXXII Artiglieria Motorizzata (12 Howitz 100/17 su btr 1-2-3);
- Gruppo XXIX Art. Motor. A.A. (12 cannoni 88/55 su batterie 1-2; 5^ btr mot. a.a. 133° R. art., con 6 cann. da 20mm);
- DLIV Gruppo Artigl. Semovente (batt. Comando con 2 semov. 75/18, 4 semov. radio);
- DLVI (batt. Comando con 2 semov. 75/18, 8 semoventi 75/18 SP su btr. 1-2);
- 406^ batteria A.A. (6 mitragliere 20/35);
- 41^ O.M.P.
Toni
Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:09 AM by david
Do you know when they upgraded to the 100/17 from the 77/28?
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:25 PM by Oasis
haven't got more notices...
Can anyone help me with a couple of problems I have.
Firstly, I'm am trying to recreate the Littorio Division in 15mm for FoW and cannot find a company level OOB for them, I have found the Niehorster website which gives me some detail, can anyone point me to a more detailed source.
Secondly, does anyone know what the divisional "logo" was, I have found the Rams Head for Ariete and the centaur for "Centauro" but cannot find out what Littorio used.
Posted 08 June 2007 - 07:49 PM by Lupo Solitario
All units in the desert had a...very mobile OOB :wink: You should first try to fix a reference date.
the logo is curious cause AFAIK italian divisions in WWII had no one...could you show us what you have found? :?:
Posted 11 June 2007 - 07:58 AM by colinsb
Was looking at El Alamein as the reference date before they became integrated into the Ariete Division.
Perhaps logo was the wrong word, I know Ariete had a ram's head on their shoulder patch, it was what Littori used that I'm trying to find.
Posted 11 June 2007 - 01:54 PM by voloire
AFAIK during the WWII italian division just use a badge with a "gladio" (roman sword), the number and the name of division....symbols were used later…..
any comments?
Posted 11 June 2007 - 04:20 PM by Lupo Solitario
in order:
the OOB of Littorio at Alamein was, AFAIK:
HQ
III Novara armored recon battalion
133rd Tank Regiment on medium tank battalions IV, XII and LI
12th motorized Bersaglieri regiment on battalions XXI, XXIII and XXXVI
133rd motorized artillery regiment (no data about composition)
for what concerns symbols...italian army had cancelled sleeve shields in 1940 and before they had more or less the shape described by Voloire.
If you refer to this shield, I'm sorry but it's post-1948
Attached File(s)
scud_cor_ariete.jpeg (I wasn't able to get the attachment)
Posted 11 June 2007 - 10:59 PM by david
ote
I think that there was also a Misto Genio unit. Some sources say Battaglione, others Compagnia. Possibly numbered 33.
The Artillery Regiment was of 2 x Gruppi, each of 12 x 75/27.
I also have 2x20mm CA Batteries.
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 13 June 2007 - 09:01 AM by colinsb
Thx for this info. Good to know my search for the divisional symbol was fruitless because it didn't exist in '42 :lol:
Did the Lancieri Novara use L6/40s or AB41s? I can't find much info on them.
Posted 13 June 2007 - 03:29 PM by Lupo Solitario
L6/40. three squadroni for a total of 52 tanks AFAIK
Posted 13 June 2007 - 10:25 PM by david
Agreed!
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 15 February 2010 - 12:14 PM by david
A number of illustrations by Don Greer (but not photos) in Nicola Pignato's book "Italian medium Tanks in action" show Ariete tanks with black stencilled rams heads similar to the above. But I too had always assumed it was a post world war II symbol.
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 17 February 2010 - 04:34 PM Lupo Solitario
anyway only on vehicles in a black/white drawing...no item for uniform in any way. Again, I've never understood if it was official or born between servicemen...
Posted 01 August 2010 - 04:15 PM by Arietil
In Nicola (Nick) Piganto’s recent book on the Italian Semovente, he has a WWII picture with the ram stenciled on it. I also have a Semovente photo with the same stencil but blurred from1942. (he considered using the photo in the book). He said it was rare to find such photos from North Africa. He said the practice was started in North Africa by the members of the Ariete to differentiate themsleves from the Littorio Armored Division after there arrival in theatre. This was only on vehicles not on uniforms as Lupo stated.
Posted 01 August 2010 - 04:20 PM by david
Very interesting!
Thank you.
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:44 AM by Oasis
Lupo Solitario said:
On 29 october 1942 the artillery of Littorio is:
3° Reggimento Artiglieria Celere (Col. A. Villani): 5 Gruppi of 3 Batterie each, assigned to 133^ Littorio:
- Comando con batteria reggimentale (un plotone con sez. osservazione, calibrazione, segnali e riserva);
- Gruppo II/3° Artiglieria Celere (12 cann. 75/27 su batterie 1-2-3);
- Gruppo CCCXXXII Artiglieria Motorizzata (12 Howitz 100/17 su btr 1-2-3);
- Gruppo XXIX Art. Motor. A.A. (12 cannoni 88/55 su batterie 1-2; 5^ btr mot. a.a. 133° R. art., con 6 cann. da 20mm);
- DLIV Gruppo Artigl. Semovente (batt. Comando con 2 semov. 75/18, 4 semov. radio);
- DLVI (batt. Comando con 2 semov. 75/18, 8 semoventi 75/18 SP su btr. 1-2);
- 406^ batteria A.A. (6 mitragliere 20/35);
- 41^ O.M.P.
Toni
Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:09 AM by david
Do you know when they upgraded to the 100/17 from the 77/28?
Cheers; Dave.
Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:25 PM by Oasis
haven't got more notices...
