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Enamal/Ceramic ribbon bar

Bigmaz

New Member
Has anyone ever seen a ceramic/enamal ribbon bar like this one?
It has all my grandfathers campaign and awards on it,but l have never seen anything like it before. Even medal collectors that l have spoken to ,have never seen anything like this.
Im assuming its issue,but it may not be.
Can anyone help indentify what l have here.
I know what some of the ribbons are.
But not all.
Love to know more about this..
Thanks
 

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jwsleser

Member
Staff member
I have seen something similar. Not an authorized set, but likely a veteran's set for wear on those occasions .

RE: Ribbons. I am not an expert, but this is what I see. From top to bottom:

Croce di guerra al valor militare

Croce al merito di guerra, 1ª concessione - These first two ribbons are painted differently, hence I believe they are the two different awards as I have listed.

Cavaliere dell'Ordine della Corona d’Italia. If it is actually this ribbon, I would have expected that it would be at the top of the bar. However, I have not found the order of precedence of Italian 2GM awards. I also assume that your Nonno was an officer.

Medaglia commemorativa della campagna di Spagna

Distintivo del periodo bellico 1940-43 (three years)

I am not sure on this medal

Medaille „Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42“

If others have a better idea on this medal arrange, please add to the conversation.

v/r
 

Bigmaz

New Member
I have seen something similar. Not an authorized set, but likely a veteran's set for wear on those occasions .

RE: Ribbons. I am not an expert, but this is what I see. From top to bottom:

Croce di guerra al valor militare

Croce al merito di guerra, 1ª concessione - These first two ribbons are painted differently, hence I believe they are the two different awards as I have listed.

Cavaliere dell'Ordine della Corona d’Italia. If it is actually this ribbon, I would have expected that it would be at the top of the bar. However, I have not found the order of precedence of Italian 2GM awards. I also assume that your Nonno was an officer.

Medaglia commemorativa della campagna di Spagna

Distintivo del periodo bellico 1940-43 (three years)

I am not sure on this medal

Medaille „Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42“

If others have a better idea on this medal arrange, please add to the conversation.

v/r
Thanks so much for your reply.
He was a sergeant.
The one at the bottom is the ostfront medal for service in russia.
I think you are right with most of the rest.
He has a certificate from the spanish civil war for the croce rosa....not sure exactly what for ....
One of the bars is damaged,so l dont know what that is...
So you believe its an unofficial set?
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
So you believe its an unofficial set?
Yes. This was not something worn on a uniform. It is a lapel pin or something similar for civilian wear. Worn by veterans to demonstrate they served. This was common in Europe.

He was a sergeant.
Given this, it is is unlikely that he received the Cavaliere dell'Ordine della Corona d’Italia. The number of members of this order was fixed by law. Only 1600 cavalieri were allowed at any one time. The higher rank had fewer members authorized. As I previously noted, its position in the bar raised concerns. The problem is that I can't find any other ribbon that matches this.

The one at the bottom is the ostfront medal for service in russia.
Yes, the Medaille „Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42" (the official name). He served in Russia , likely with the Corpo di spedizione italiano in Russia (C.S.I.R.).

He has a certificate from the spanish civil war for the croce rosa....not sure exactly what for ....
Can you scan and post it here? The damaged bar might be C.R. award.

Jeff
 

Bigmaz

New Member
Yes. This was not something worn on a uniform. It is a lapel pin or something similar for civilian wear. Worn by veterans to demonstrate they served. This was common in Europe.



Given this, it is is unlikely that he received the Cavaliere dell'Ordine della Corona d’Italia. The number of members of this order was fixed by law. Only 1600 cavalieri were allowed at any one time. The higher rank had fewer members authorized. As I previously noted, its position in the bar raised concerns. The problem is that I can't find any other ribbon that matches this.



Yes, the Medaille „Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42" (the official name). He served in Russia , likely with the Corpo di spedizione italiano in Russia (C.S.I.R.).



Can you scan and post it here? The damaged bar might be C.R. award.

Jeff
Yes. This was not something worn on a uniform. It is a lapel pin or something similar for civilian wear. Worn by veterans to demonstrate they served. This was common in Europe.



Given this, it is is unlikely that he received the Cavaliere dell'Ordine della Corona d’Italia. The number of members of this order was fixed by law. Only 1600 cavalieri were allowed at any one time. The higher rank had fewer members authorized. As I previously noted, its position in the bar raised concerns. The problem is that I can't find any other ribbon that matches this.



Yes, the Medaille „Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42" (the official name). He served in Russia , likely with the Corpo di spedizione italiano in Russia (C.S.I.R.).



Can you scan and post it here? The damaged bar might be C.R. award.

Jeff
Tried to post pic here,,but says file too large.
If you have an email l can send it to you .
Mine is amazzonbarbell@hotmail.com
Pls msg me,and l will send you a pic of his certificate of the Croce Rosa from Tge Spanish civil war .
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
Adam

Thank you for sending the scans of your nonno's certificates. Yes, they do answer many questions. It is wonderful that you have his military records.

He wasn't award the Croce Rosa, he was awarded the Cruz Roja del Mérito Militar. Once I saw the certificate was written in Spanish, I realized that it was a Spanish award for gallantry. As I previously stated, I was very uncomfortable with my initial thoughts on this ribbon. The certificate was issued by the Spanish Army for the action at Monte Fosca on 31 dicembre 1938. I will need to check my Italian history of that war to see if I can gleam any additional info on that action (or others here can help). As a foreign award, it makes sense that it is third in order on the pin.

The damaged medal is very likely the medaglia di benemerenza per i volontari della campagna di Spagna. Your nonno's certificate states he was awarded the medal on 22 settembre 1942. The medal itself was authorized for award in 1940. Its placement above the „Winterschlacht im Osten 1941/42" also makes sense as they are both participation awards for specific events and the Italian award is the older of the two.

What is interesting is that the medaglia di benemerenza was not merely a participation award; the awardee must have participated in manner worthy of commendation. The following automatically qualified the individual:

-awarded of the ordine militare di Savoia;
-promotion or appointment based on meritorious actions in war;
-awarded of a medaglia o croce di guerra al valor militare;
-awarded of a croce al merito di guerra;
-awarded a distintivo di ferito o mutilato di guerra.

Others needed to have a statement/certificate from their regimental commander stating they served during the war with merit. Your nonno's Cruz Roja likely qualified him for the award. IBWs, not all Italian soldiers serving in Spain received this medal.

I am a little puzzled by the order of some of the ribbons. I would have expected that the medaglia di benemerenza would have been in the fourth place, and the Medaglia commemorativa della campagna di Spagna in the sixth place. As an award for merit, the medaglia di benemerenza should be higher than a commemoration ribbon. But I have never found a good source stating the order of precedence.

Some excellent family history!

Pista! Jeff
 
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jwsleser

Member
Staff member
He has a certificate from the spanish civil war for the croce rosa....not sure exactly what for ....
In your scans, you included the notification of the award in the Italian records. The citation reads:

caporal maggiore in the 1º reggimento artiglieria d'assalto « Littorio » - commander of the machine gun section of his battery, [he] tenaciously defended the position from an enemy attack and subsequently, during a sudden repositioning of the guns he remained at this post, ready to blunt any enemy desire [to attack the guns].
The words in brackets are not in the original Italian, but I have added them to make better sense of the phrasing to the English reader. For our fluent Italian speaking members, below is the the original Italian text. If there is a better translation, please feel free to post it here.

caporal maggiore 1º reggimento artiglieria d'assalto « Littorio » - Comandante di sezione mitragiatrici di una batteria, difendeva tenacemente la posizione da un attacco nemico e successivamente, durante un sbalzo dei pessi rimanev sul posto, pronto a rintuzzare qualunque velleità nemica.
I didn't include your nonno's name or the family info provided in the cite as I don't know whether you wish to to post it here.

Note he was a caporale maggiore, not a sergente. Caporali e caporale maggiore are not considered NCOs in the Regio Esercito. To be a sergente, one had to pass a reading and writing test. Do you know whether your nonno was literate?

Pista! Jeff
 
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jwsleser

Member
Staff member
A question is whether the certificate for the medaglia di benemerenza reflected his rank at the time of the award (1942) or whether it reflect his rank at the time of the act (1938).
 

Bigmaz

New Member
In your scans, you included the notification of the award in the Italian records. The citation reads:



The words in brackets are not in the original Italian, but I have added them to make the phrasing make better sense to the English reader. For our fluent Italian speaking members, below is the the original Italian text. If there is a better translation, please feel free to post it here.



I didn't include your nonno's name or the family info provided in the cite as I don't know whether you wish to to post it here.

Note he was a caporale maggiore, not a sergente. Caporali e caporale maggiore are not considered NCOs in the Regio Esercito. To be a sergente, one had to pass a reading and writing test. Do you know whether your nonno was literate?

Pista! Jeff
Thank you so much Jeff.
You have really cleared up some stuff for me....yes he was literate,and became a sargeant later on when he was in Russia with the CSIR.
I quite a few more documents l would like to send you,as l cant actually read the cursive writing which is in Italian.
He actaully said to me ,when he was alive,that as a Sargeant,he became the Platoon leader ,in Russia,as the Lieutenant, who was the original platoon leader,became sick or died,so he was tasked with taking over the Platoon.
Do you mind if l email the other docs to you.
And l dont mind if you publish his name on here...its an absolute honor,IMO.
You have realy helped me so much,as l have been looking for the answers to these questions for years and years.
He also told me many stories of his deployments/actions,which l thought were amazing....he was a tough old bloke.....but he was cryung as he told me.some.of them when his mates were killed.
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
Adam

By all means you can send scans of the documents to me. I will see what I can add to your nonno's story.
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
The key document is his 'Foglio Matricolare'. If you have a copy of that document, it will tell you a lot about your nonno's service. If you don't have it, you can request a copy of it from Italy.
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
I check my copy of La partecipazione italiana alla guerra civile Spagnola but it didn’t offer any details on the actions in December 1938. Vol II has a detail topographical map, but I couldn’t find a place named Monte Fosca. The operations order for the « Littorio » gave Fosca as the direction of attack, but I couldn’t find that city/town on the map. There is a La Fosca on the coast, but that appears to be too far away to be used as a direction of attack.
 
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