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Guardia alla Frontieri G.a.F

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David Wormell

Member
All for 10th June 1940.

Do we know how many men present in...

G.a.F Settore 28.

G.a.F Settore 29.

G.a.F Settore 31.

G.a.F Settore 32.

G.a.F Settore 33.

G.aF Settore 34.

G.aF Settore 35.


Thanks in advance,
David.
 
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diciassette2000

Member
As I told you just now, the information on the organization of the units relating to the first period of fighting in AS for the royal army is very fragmentary....in the specific case for 10 June 1941, over time I have found only the consistencies for the 28th Sector Gaf (1500 infantry men), 29th Sector Gaf (500 infantry men) and 30th Sector Gaf (2500 infantry men)
all the best
Maurizio
 
jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
The basic source for info on the G.a.F. is Ascoli's La guardia alla frontiera (link to the copy on Issuu). The OB for 1 June 1940 in A.S. starts on p.314 (p.316 using the slider bar on the page).

Note that the book is really a starting point, especially for A.S. While the other fronts were in the main static, the G.a.F. organization in A.S. underwent many changes, mainly to provide additional manpower and artillery for the army.

Pista! Jeff
 
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diciassette2000

Member
The lack of information on other sectors is because I don't have other information... not that it doesn't exist in an absolute sense even if I think it's very difficult to obtain it...
all the best
Maurizio
 
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diciassette2000

Member
Jeff
it is not entirely true that only in AS did the GAF have an organization remodeled many times in favor of the army ... perhaps only in Albania (9th Army) it remained static while on all the other fronts including the internal Italian one it radically changed both in its infantry component and in machine gunners and artillery ......
All the best
Maurizio
 
jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
David Wormell said:
Do you interpret the lack of fanteria numbers for the other Settori as missing information or no fanteria present?
Click to expand...

I have always read it as no infantry units present. The main units in the G.a.F. were artillery and machine-guns. They were defending static fortifications where these weapons were more important than infantry. There are specific infantry units listed, which indicates to me that if infantry were present they would be listed. The OBs for the start of the war are too detailed in all aspects to indicate a loss of information.

I feel the defensive positioning of the Italian defenders at Bardia is a very good indicator of how the R.E. viewed the defense of fortified positions. The G.a.F. are occupying the prepared defenses with the field army in rearward support positions. The field army would provide the mobile counterattack forces and would block any penetration between the posts. This is similar to the method used by the French with their fortifications. It was easier to provide infantry units to supplement the fortifications/defense on the outbreak of war than trained and equipped artillery and mtr. units. Artillery and mtr. units require fewer men that infantry units and provide more bang for the buck/pound/euro.

diciassette2000 said:
it is not entirely true that only in AS did the GAF have an organization remodeled many times in favor of the army ... perhaps only in Albania (9th Army) it remained static while on all the other fronts including the internal Italian one it radically changed both in its infantry component and in machine gunners and artillery ......
Click to expand...

True. For me it is a question of degree. The losses incurred in A.S. and the need for mobile forces drove changes in the G.a.F. structure in A.S. to a far greater degree at a much faster pace than on other fronts. By April 1941, the G.a.F. in A.S. is undergoing a major restructuring. My comment was tied into your comment about the lack/loss of information. Change on other fronts happened slower and to a lesser extent than in A.S. and therefore are better captured.

Pista! Jeff
 
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jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, but not as separate maneuver units. By design, btg. mtr. are meant to be broken down and attached to infantry battalions to provide additional fire support. The G.a.F. mtr. units are normally considered/labeled as da posizione, meaning they are meant to be used in static fortifications. The permanent fortifications allowed the use of smaller units but with greater firepower (i.e. MG units).

However the R.E. did tend to use the R.E. btg. mtr. as separate maneuver battalions in their own right, especially early in the war in A.S. when the R.E. was spread thin. As these units were normally motorized, they became units capable of being deployed quickly where needed. During Compass, the vast majority of units taken from the 5ª Armata to reinforce the 10ª Armata were artillery and btg. mtr. because they were motorized.

Pista! Jeff
 
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Dili

Member
My point is, if it is said that there is 2500 Infantry in 30 GAF settore that includes the machine guns.
 
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diciassette2000

Member
Jeff
Generally speaking, you are right but it is not exactly correct to think that there were no GAF infantry units, so much so that often starting from 1941, as I anticipated to David, only infantry maneuver units (infantry maneuver battalions) were created in all the theaters of war and moreover it should also be noted that in various documents relating to the African theater (see SME Rome) the actual GAF are indicated with the wording infantry (see also pages 341 and following of the Tome The first counteroffensive .... ) and above all that in the specific case GAF machine-gun units were specifically framed in GAF units at company and battalion level specifically detailed and numerically identified ... therefore it is obvious to note that the GAF framed static units and mainly machine-gun and artillery units but certainly also infantry and engineering units as well as armored units even if represented by obsolete and even ridiculous tanks....
Dili
Read my answer to David carefully....2500 inclusive of all weapons....engineers, artillery and infantry (commands, gunners and resistance centres)
all the best
Maurizio
 
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Dili

Member
30th Sector Gaf (2500 infantry men)
Click to expand...
You just said the above. Typically that means not artillery.

Just for MG units i have 3,6,14,15,18,19º compagnie mitraglieri da posizione libico, plus there were some mobile. Reparto genio misto. Then about 50 medium artillery pieces. Those troops are certainly more than 2500. I have each MG companie with 117 men.
 
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diciassette2000

Member
Dili
For the artillery you are right but you have to bear in mind that the Libyan machine gun companies were NOT GAF units but only support units, moreover rightly considered non-national (therefore colonial) and certainly not included in the calculation of the 2500 .... anyway you see...
ALl the best
Maurizio
 
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diciassette2000

Member
No, the GAF in 1940-45 was a separate arm just like the colonial troops, it had its insignia and uniforms and its own organization ... they were both part of the army but they were bodies in their own right, something never repeated after the war in the Italian army .... the GAF born for the "protection of the sacred borders" also made use of other units for its work so in Italy and in AS it made use of units of the MVSN, Milmart, MACA while in AS in addition to these also of colonial troops such as the Libyan machine gunners who however remained belonging to the colonial troops ....
all the best
Maurizio
 
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