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Horses qty in Fanteria, Montagna, Alpini divsions?

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
From L'esercito italiano tra la 1ª e 2ª guerra mondiale.

d. fanteria - 3,424 quadrupedi
d. alpina - 5,327 quadrupedi
d. montagna - a note states "Particolari, opportune varianti erano introdotte nella formazione di guerra della divisone di fanteria da montagna".

For the d. montagna, the Handbook on the Italian Military Forces give an approximation of 4,000 animals. This appears to be nearly correct , as the main difference is the use of someggiati for the artillery.

Pista! Jeff
 

Dili

Member
Thanks Jeff.

I guess the only infantry division can go to Libya are Piave. Since Torino and Pasubio went Soviet Union.

I also have Superga, Livorno motorised in late 1942.

Wiki says Piave was motorised in 1941, can you confirm?



Lists in 1941 the organico as :

57° Rgt. fanteria "Abruzzi"

3 Btg. fanteria

1 Cp. mortai da 81 (9 pz.)

1 Cp art. da supporto da 65/17 (4 pz.)
58° Rgt. fanteria "Abruzzi"

3 Btg. fanteria

1 Cp. mortai da 81 (9 pz.)

1 Cp. art. da supporto da 65/17 (4 pz.)

20° Rgt. artiglieria motorizzata "Piave"
2 Gr. art. motorizzata da 75/27
1 Gr. art. motorizzata da 100/17
2 Gr. art. contraerea da 20 mm
10° Btg. art. controcarro da 47/32
10° Btg. Genio
 
The organic history of the "Piave" self-transportable division was very articulated and complex. Formed first as a metropolitan self-transportable division on the 1940 scheme (TOE) it was made available to be transferred to North Africa in 1941. As early as January of that year it then began to turn into the "motorized 1941" type even though it later became de facto a division with a unique and very hybrid scheme. However in the course of 1941 he gradually assumed this organic conformation:
-10th "Piave" self-transportable Infantry Division (transformed into Motorized AS type in 1941)
--Command
--31.a and 32.a CCRR Section
--57th Infantry Regiment
- 58th Infantry Regiment
--10.o accompanying weapons battalion (added at the time of transformation)
- 10. Armored exploring battalion (added at the time of transformation)
--10.o mortars battalion (later incorporated in the 10th accompanying battalion)
- 10 ^ company cannon controcarro (idem cs)
--20 ° motorized artillery regiment with:
--- 310.a anti-aircraft battery
--- 560.o self-propelled artillery group (added at the time of transformation)
--- 507.o anti-aircraft artillery group from 90/53 on two batteries
--10.o mixed genius battalion (added at the time of transformation)
- 9..a mixed genius company ?????
--42.a company genius artieri (incorporated in the 10.o mixed genius battalion)
- 10 ^ telegraphers and radiotelegraphers genius company (idem cs)
--117.a health section with:
--- 816.a and 817.a field hospital
--- 65. in the surgical section
--127.a bakers section
--186.a heavy autosection
--236.a mixed autosection
Since then the division never went to North Africa, it was later remodeled and transformed once again and then a second one in view of the defense of Rome in 1943.
All the best
maurizio
 

Dili

Member
Thanks Maurizio

what was this subunit: - 10. Armored exploring battalion (added at the time of transformation)
 
It was the bersaglieri motorcyclist company planned in the AS 41 motorized divisional staff but to which were added some Ab40-41 type armored cars and later Soluthurn antitank rifles. At the time of the battle for Rome, however, the division had only the bersaglieri company and the rifles ...
All the best
Maurizio
 

Dili

Member
Thanks. Btw the Metropolitan Autotrasportable had any horses?

Was Piave motorised like Trieste Trento or something different?
 
Not have horses.......in 1941 it's was like Trieste and Trento , after 1941 it have some little difference.........also Trento and Trieste after this date have difference.......
All the best
Maurizio
 

FrancoFB

New Member
Yes, 913 horses and mules:
3 in division HQ
345 each for the infantry rgt
144 in the mortar btl
76 in the 47/32 coy
 
Dili
The three self-transportable metropolitan divisions (Piave, Torino and Pasubio) had the mortar battalion, the anti-tank company and the infantry regiments of planned movement with quadrupeds in the 1940 TOE. In reality that configuration never maintained it operationally. The Piave of expected use in North Africa (a job that never became a reality) became Motorized Type AS from the beginning of 1941 while both Torino and Pasubio of expected use in Russia first with the CSIR then with the ARMIR while remaining Autotrasportabili Subways they radically altered their organic appearance by being strengthened both in materials and in men who lost their quadrupeds in a strange way. The motorization of the two Large Units became possible with vehicles managed directly by the Army and Army Corps Groupings. Therefore these last ones could never have been used in North Africa ..... but for other obvious reasons ....
All the best
Maurizio
 

Dili

Member
I was thinking of a motor transport Armata already in 1940 to be sent to Africa. I was counting on those 3 divisions. i guess i can convert those to normal infantry, bring most their trucks to Africa and motorize 2 or 3 AS there.
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
To clarify terminology.

divisione fanteria autotrasportabile (d. at.) had a combination of vehicles and quadrupeds.
divisione fanteria autotrasportabile tipo A.S. (d. at. A.S.) only had vehicles.

These are two different types of divisions.

When the Bologna, Brescia, Pavia, and Savona were mobilized in 1939 and transferred to the A.S., they were reconfigured as d. at. A.S. before they left Italy.
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
while both Torino and Pasubio of expected use in Russia first with the CSIR then with the ARMIR while remaining Autotrasportabili Subways they radically altered their organic appearance by being strengthened both in materials and in men who lost their quadrupeds in a strange way.
I am not aware of any TO&E changes for these two units prior to their deployment to Russia. They went to Russia as d. f. at.

The motorization of the two Large Units became possible with vehicles managed directly by the Army and Army Corps Groupings.
The corpo d'armata autotrasportabile was designed that the d. f. at. would be augmented by trucks from the corpo d'armata autogruppo for specific movements (especially moving the infantry). This was the doctrine for these units. I would need to check to see whether the Torino and Pasubio received any additional trucks prior to their deployment to replace the quadrupeds used in the cc., mrt., and servizi. The Pasubio was reinforced by the 137º autosezione pesante ( I assume the Torino was likewise reinforced), but nothing states these trucks replaced any quadrupeds. The division had some additional reinforcement, but these were all in addition to the TO&E.
 
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Jwsleser
In fact your calculation is correct ... from the situation of the vehicles and weapons of the Turin and Pasubio divisions of the 1942 period the total of the animals in charge of the divisions is oscillating between 877 and 883 units while those of the trucks between 530 and the 554 units. Considering that the total TOE of the metropolitan self-transportables was 461 vehicles and 913 quadrupeds, it would seem possible that the divisions had certainly not been reworked or strengthened in vehicles, except in a small part.
All the best
Maurizio
 
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