Kustosz2137
New Member
Basically I'm lookin for some information about these two M tank battalions that I couldn't find to this point, there are also my few thoughts;
— Why their numbers were so different from other battalions? Why they were named out of order?
— What's going on with LII? Why was it even created and why was it called a battalion? The only info I could find about this unit is that it existed about two months (10.1941 - 01.1942), was made of only 9 M14/41 tanks (so it was more like a half-company) and was assigned to RECo of the "Ariete" in the AS. Do you guys have anything more about it?
— What type of the M tank was LI equipped with and how many of them it had?
According to most sources the LI was equipped with M14/41 tanks, but it's vehicles in available photos look like M13/40s, this means, that they were most propably early M14s, still looking like M13s, but already with the SPA15T engine (one such vehicle is preserved in USA). The problem begins with number plates;
According to N.Pignato, the first M14/41 produced had the number plate RoEto3498. In the LI battalion tho, we can see plates with much lower numbers, such as RoEto3334 of the unit's commander (other confirmed examples: 3429, 3343, 3333, 3329, 3315). In fact, there is not a single photo available with M tank that could be confirmed as LI's and with number plate above 3498.
There is one interesting example with later M14/41 (long fenders etc.) wearing the "A COLPO SICURO" motto above it's gun, characteristic for the LI, but no battalion number, nor hull emblem are visible, so we cannot exclude possibility, that it's vehicle from other unit that just adopted the motto.
So there are few possible explanations;
- Battalion was actually equipped with M13/40s, that might 've been later replaced by M14/41s (or not), or a mix of both types.
- Pignato might be wrong about first M14/41's number plate.
- Battalion's tanks were M13/40 shells, but with engine swapped for SPA15T, which we know was a practice for which even official instruction was made.
The other issue is actual number of the tanks used by LI. Standard size of the M battalion was 52 tanks at this point, but according to "Carro M vol.2" book by Talillo brothers (p.136) the LI was equipped with 80 of them, which seems like an enormous amount for Italian standard (the largest battalion to this point was VIII M with 68 tanks, after getting additional 16 from disbanded VII M, which already is a really large number). This problem also connects to the previous one, because if 80 is a real number, then LI couldn't be fully equipped with early (M13-like looking) M14s, of which only 50 were produced before adding more modifications to the construction (which is 2 short to equip even standard size battalion). I was also wondering what structure such battalion must have to contain 80 vehicles and the only way I can see this, is with 4 companies, each with 3 platoons, each with 6 tanks (72 tanks in platoons + 4 company commanders + 1 battalion commander + 3 tanks in battalion command company).
Any thoughts?
— Why their numbers were so different from other battalions? Why they were named out of order?
— What's going on with LII? Why was it even created and why was it called a battalion? The only info I could find about this unit is that it existed about two months (10.1941 - 01.1942), was made of only 9 M14/41 tanks (so it was more like a half-company) and was assigned to RECo of the "Ariete" in the AS. Do you guys have anything more about it?
— What type of the M tank was LI equipped with and how many of them it had?
According to most sources the LI was equipped with M14/41 tanks, but it's vehicles in available photos look like M13/40s, this means, that they were most propably early M14s, still looking like M13s, but already with the SPA15T engine (one such vehicle is preserved in USA). The problem begins with number plates;
According to N.Pignato, the first M14/41 produced had the number plate RoEto3498. In the LI battalion tho, we can see plates with much lower numbers, such as RoEto3334 of the unit's commander (other confirmed examples: 3429, 3343, 3333, 3329, 3315). In fact, there is not a single photo available with M tank that could be confirmed as LI's and with number plate above 3498.
There is one interesting example with later M14/41 (long fenders etc.) wearing the "A COLPO SICURO" motto above it's gun, characteristic for the LI, but no battalion number, nor hull emblem are visible, so we cannot exclude possibility, that it's vehicle from other unit that just adopted the motto.
So there are few possible explanations;
- Battalion was actually equipped with M13/40s, that might 've been later replaced by M14/41s (or not), or a mix of both types.
- Pignato might be wrong about first M14/41's number plate.
- Battalion's tanks were M13/40 shells, but with engine swapped for SPA15T, which we know was a practice for which even official instruction was made.
The other issue is actual number of the tanks used by LI. Standard size of the M battalion was 52 tanks at this point, but according to "Carro M vol.2" book by Talillo brothers (p.136) the LI was equipped with 80 of them, which seems like an enormous amount for Italian standard (the largest battalion to this point was VIII M with 68 tanks, after getting additional 16 from disbanded VII M, which already is a really large number). This problem also connects to the previous one, because if 80 is a real number, then LI couldn't be fully equipped with early (M13-like looking) M14s, of which only 50 were produced before adding more modifications to the construction (which is 2 short to equip even standard size battalion). I was also wondering what structure such battalion must have to contain 80 vehicles and the only way I can see this, is with 4 companies, each with 3 platoons, each with 6 tanks (72 tanks in platoons + 4 company commanders + 1 battalion commander + 3 tanks in battalion command company).
Any thoughts?
