Mario Carloni

[Webmaster]

by GLADIVM » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:59 am

I would like to have some more info about Gen Mario Carloni, ( I believe in the Regio Esercito he reached the rank of Colonel and became General during RSI ).

I would like to know about his early career in the Army and confirmation that he was C.O. of one regiment of Siena Infantry division during Albanian - Greek campaign.
His tenure as C.O. of Bersaglieri regiment is well known to me but I lack details about his other posts before and after Russian campaign.
Also I would like to know where he was on 8th Sept.
During RSI he commanded both Monterosa and Italia Divisions, what was his post before Monterosa? At war's end, he surrendered with his men to Brasilian Expeditionary Corp in Emilia and was interned at Coltrano prison camp awaiting trial for his choice.

I know he was stripped of his rank and purged from the army but did he had also to spend time in jail?

Was he born in Naples ? and where did he die?

I know he wrote a book about the vicissitudes of his bersaglieri regiment in Russia , and I trying to get a copy, but does anyone knows if there is any book written about him?

Thanks for any help

Yours

GLADIVM

---------

by Lupo Solitario » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:48 am

GLADIVM wrote:I would like to have some more infos about Gen Mario Carloni ,( I believe in the Regio Esercito he reached the rank of Colonel and became General during RSI ) .

I would like to know about his early career in the Army and confirmation that he was C.O. of one regiment of Siena Infantry division during Albanian - Greek campaign .

Confirmed: 31st Infantry regiment IIRC

His tenure as C.O. of Bersaglieri regiment is well known to me but I lack details about his other posts before and after Russian campaign .
Also I would like to know where he was on 8th Sept .

CO 6th Bersaglieri Regiment

During RSI he commanded both Monterosa and Italia Divisions , what was his post before Monterosa ? . At war's end he surrended with his men to Brasilian Expeditionary Corp in Emilia and was interned at Coltrano prison camp awaiting trial for his choice .

I know he was stripped of his rank and purged from the army but did he had also to spend time in jail ?

I think no

Was he born in Naples ? and where did he die ?

I know he wrote a book about the vicissitudes of his bersaglieri regiment in russia , and I trying to get a copy , but does anyone knows if there is any book written about him ?

AFAIK no, about his book it's really rare stuff to find (BTW it's also one of the most boring books I've ever read...)

---------------

by GLADIVM » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:50 am

Thanks Lupo,

I knew I could count on you for confirmation.

Would you know where the 6th Bersaglieri was at 8th Sept?

Thanks also for the insight about Carloni book, already checked out that is out of commerce but can get it through interbibliotecary loan just must wait a little bit to receive it .

Do you think is worth to read it? Boredom is Ok if it contains useful military info about Russia campaign, after all, Carloni was a soldier and not a writer.

A comment out of topic, I have always been surprised how the best Italian books about WWII are all written by alpinis, they seem gifted not only in fighting but also in writing, strange considering that mostly they were coming from mountains.

Thank for attention and help

Yours

GLADIVM

----------

by Lupo Solitario » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:34 am

GLADIVM wrote:Thanks Lupo ,

I knew I could count on you for confirmation .

Oh, it's a pleasure...

Would you know where the 6th Bersaglieri was at 8th Sept ?

Surely east of Bologna...near Faenza I believe

Thanks also for the insight about Carloni book , already checked out that is out of commerce but can get it through interbibliotecary loan just must wait a little bit to receive it .

Do you think is worth to read it ? Boredom is Ok if contains useful military infos about russia campaign , after all Carloni was a soldier and not a writer .

Oh, for a historian it's a must, it's largely as reading an official report. No emotion, in any sense. He had to be a really cold man.
Strange but true, there are many not understandable mistakes. He insisted in calling a german unit which was aside them in the retreat "a battalion of SS Wiking" but some month of research has shown me it was a Heer unit (and anyway not a Wiking one). Or his stressing on calling all german guns "88"...strange in a so competent officer...

A comment out of topic , I have always been surprised how the best italian books about WWII are all written by alpinis , they seem gifted not only in fighting but also in writing , strange considering that mostly they were coming from mountains .

Remember that, with exception of Rigoni Stern (who is anyway a well-learned man), writers were all officers, ie people with, at least, a secondary school degree

 

[Webmaster]

by GLADIVM » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:48 am

Thanks again Lupo,

I agree that many military books are boring and as you say a must if wish to get useful information, sometimes only a few lines in a book of hundreds of pages, but it is worth.

I would like to read something about Carloni the man but it seems that no one as bothered to write about him, Recentlly I read " fronte greco-albanese c'ero anch'io " and there is a piece written by Carloni it is an apology of the 31 IR of Siena but not much about informations or feelings .

In the same books, there are many short pieces written by alpinis ( simple soldiers ) and surprisingly they are very well written and full of humanity, the accounts of infantrymen instead even if written by officers come out as less impressive ( of course there are exceptions)
Besides Rigoni Stern who was Sargent major, I think that also Revelli was an NCO, am I right?

Yours

GLADIVM

-------------

by FB » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:24 am

GLADIVM wrote:Thanks again Lupo ,

I agree that many military books are boring and as you say a must if wish to get useful informations , sometimes only a few lines in a book of a hundreds of pages , but it is worth .

I would like to read something about Carloni the man but it seems that no one as bothered to write about him , Recentlly I read " fronte greco-albanese c'ero anch'io " and there is a piece written by Carloni it is an apology of the 31 IR of Siena but not much about informations or feelings .

In the same books there are many short pieces written by alpinis ( simple soldiers ) and surprisingly they are very well written and full of humanity , the accounts of infantrymen instead even if written by officers come out as less impressive ( of course there are exceptions)
Besides Rigoni Stern who was sergent major , I think that also Revelli was an NCO , am I right ?

Yours

GLADIVM

Revelli was a 2nd Lt during WWII.

You are correct in pointing out that in Fronte Greco Albanese C'ero Anch'Io there are a lot of Alpini writings in comparison with those coming from soldiers of other services or Army specialty.

This, though, has IMHO the following explanations: the book curator was Mr. Bedeschi, who in the hart&minds of a lot of Alpini is "the" author. It can be said that a lot of them responded positively to the publisher's request for material expressed through the author of 100.000 Gavette di Ghiaccio. And, complimentary to this, there is a quite powerful net that can reach a lot of Alpini around, that is their Association ANA (Associazione Nazionale Alpini). All, again, facilitated by the regional call to arms that Alpini had. It's easier to spread a voice in a valley than in a whole nation.

Normal Infantry troopers couldn't count on these facilities to make their memories known. And, it must also be said, they also had not the same esprit de corps of the Alpini.

Best regards

----------------

by Steen Ammentorp » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:56 am

Hi GlADIVM,

If not where - do you know when he was born and died?

------------

by GLADIVM » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:15 am

Thanks, FB,

I thought that Revelli was raising from ranks and not an officer. a wrong assumption.

You are right that ANA is a much more organized association than the other army veterans ones
Bedeschi in the book preface indicated that he did not favor alpinis reports and that he kept the same percentage of letters as those he received for each unit. So most probably alpinis network and esprit de corps are the best explanation.

Steen,

I believe that Carloni was born in Naples but cannot confirm it, about date place could be Naples or Roma but cannot be certain and I am afraid will remain so as he was an elusive character and find detailed info about him seems very difficult.

Yours

GLADIVM

----------

by GLADIVM » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:19 am

Steen ,

He died in the mid-1970s because he had time to write a letter to Bedeschi for his book but was dead by the time book was published in November 1977, sorry but cannot be more precise.

Yours

GLADIVM

------------------

by FB » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:05 am

General Mario Carloni, according to this link died in Rome on Jan 30th, 1962. And this should be confirmed by the Feb 6th, 1962 Lower Chamber Session Official Account were Hon. Romualdi asks the Defence Secretary as to why no Military Honor was granted to the General's funeral after his "recent death" (page 6 of 34 of the .pdf file, bottom right of the page).

In another site, I read that he was 50 in 1944, so that would give 1895 as his birth year. But I'm not sure at all about the credibility of this last information.

Best regards

--------

by GLADIVM » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:54 am

Thanks, FB,

So probably the letter to Bedeschi was sent by Carloni's relatives after his death once they were informed about the book.

Yours

GLADIVM

-------------

by Steen Ammentorp » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:53 am

Thanks for the info GLADIVM & FB

 

[Giova]

Hello,

one question: Carloni was the commander of 31st Infantry regiment on Crete until 04/10/ 1942 (according to Wikipedia)...but who was his successor?

What's the name of the 31st Infantry regiment commander on the end of 1942 and until 8/9/1943?

I've found on official book of Italian Army and on NARA record (Nara T-315 R-783 22.ID) that maybe a colonel "Oriani" or "Orioni" was the 31st Infantry regiment commander...but never find the name!

 

[jwsleser]

Giova

Col. Giovanni Oriani replaced Carloni as the commander. L'Esercito Italiano verso il 2000, vol. secondo, tomo I, p.136.

Pista! Jeff

 

[Giova]

Many thanks, got it!

I knew this book, but never focused on it.

For further reader, here the book:

L'ESERCITO ITALIANO VERSO IL 2000 VOL. II - TOMO I

Autori Franco dell'Uoomo e Rodolfo Puletti, Storia dei Corpi dell'esercito, Editrice Pisani , 2001

issuu.com