Navy Armoured Trains on Sicily

[Alex]

Naval Base Augusta-Siracusa
Treno armato a Siracusa (Navy Armoured Train) (6x 102mm guns) (Attached)

Harbour Defence Group "E"
Navy Armoured Train (4x 120mm/45 guns) (Attached)

207th Coastal Division
Navy Armoured Train (4x 120mm/45 guns) (Attached)

139th Coastal Regiment
Navy Armoured Train (4x 76mm/40 mod.1935 guns) (Attached)


Notes:

 

[Alex]

The Italian Navy used for coastal defence, 14x Treni armati (armed trains) of which 10 were destroyed in Sicily during the summer of 1943 and the other four, along the Ligurian coasts, were seized by Germans.
There were also two Flak-Schutzwagen (a gift from Hitler to Mussolini, July 1940), but one was lost in Sicily, the other one was captured by USA forces at Naples.

Source

 

[diciassette2000]

I don't know where this information comes from but it seems to me a little bit rough. First of all, 8 trains depended on Marimobil Sicilia in 1943 so it seems a little strange that more of them were destroyed ..... maybe the others were in Calabria or thereafter, then the Germans did not use trains belonging to the Italian Navy in Liguria but former French trains of war prey ...... maybe ... but it is not certain one used the Kriegsmarine ......
All the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Like everything Italian, it is never simple to solve. Again I will stress that providing sources is quite helpful

Taken at face value, Le operazioni in Sicilia e in Calabria lists 12 R.M. armored trains (TA):
-Two in the d.cos. 207º (p. 504)
-One with Difesa Porto «E» - Catania (p. 507)
-One with the Piazza Militare Marittima Augusta-Siracusa (p.512)
-Eight listed as "8 Treni armati in totale" (p. 513)

However, further reading indicates that the number of eight is inclusive of all the TA listed in the OOB.

Footnote 24 on p. 86 states/lists only eight TA (see below).

TA 76/II/T is mention in Sicilia on p. 144.
TA 102/I/T is mention in Sicilia on p. 171.

Gli autoveicoli da combattimento dell'Esercito Italiano vol 2 list 12 total R.M. TA and their locations (p. 560). According to this list, 9 of the TA were in Sicilia.

Here is a comparison of the two lists:

Sicilia (from fn 24)
76-I-T (Porto Empedocle)
76-II-T (Licata)
76-III-T (Mazzara del Vallo)
102-I-T (Targia)
120-III-S (Porto Empedocle)
120-IV-S (Catania)
152-I-T (Termini Imerese)
152-II-T (Carini)

Gli autoveicoli (Italicized units not in Sicilia)
76-I-T (Porto Empedocle)
76-II-T (Porto Empedocle)
76-III-T (Mazzara del Vallo)
102-I-T (Targia)
120-I-T (Targia)
120-I-S (Siderno Marina - Reggio Calabria)
120-IV-S (Catania)
152-I-T (Termini Imerese)
152-II-T (Carini)
152-III-T (Carini)
152-IV-T (Albissola - Savona)
152-V-T (Voltre - Genova)

The TA with 76mm and the 102mm guns match. The numbering of one of the 120mm TA and its location are different. One 152mm TA is added by Gli autoveicoli.

v/r Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

Unfortunately that of trains for military use is a very unknown theme. First of all, we need to understand what type of trains we need to talk about. During the Second World War the Royal Army had various types of trains for military use which we can summarize as follows:
- railway armored car
-armored trains
-armed trains
- anti-aircraft trains
- spare trains
The first type did not operate in Italy and served for the anti-partisan struggle in the occupied countries. There were 4 armored trains in Sicily at the time of the Allied disembarkation. There were also 8 armed trains operating in Sicily at the time of the invasion, although in fact 10 were dependent on Marimobil Messina (one was in Siderno Marina -Calabria and depended on 212 .a coastal division while the other was in Crotone-Calabria and depended on the 214.a coastal division). Of the remaining 8 one was destroyed by a bombing, 6 were sabotaged and destroyed by the Italians themselves so as not to drop them into enemy hands and one was blown up by order of the 6th army command. The Germans after September 8 took possession of 4 armed trains but disassembled them and used the pieces to arm fixed positions on the Gothic line. There were only one anti-aircraft trains in Sicily but at the same time there were at least 6 special anti-aircraft companies mounted on railway wagons with anti-aircraft tasks numbered in the 200 series and armed with 20mm Breda pieces. Other railway batteries armed with pieces of former French PB sold by the Germans did not appear in Sicily at the time of the Allied invasion.
All the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Thank Maurizio

Yes, the R.M. trains were armed trains, not armored trains. My bad.

RE: TA located at Crotone. Gli autoveicoli doesn't list a TA at Crotone. What it does state for TA 152-III-T is "dal 29 november 1942 a Palermo, alle dipendenza della 208ª Divisione Costeria, fu dal 4 gennaio a Crotone (CZ) per tornare il 16 gennaio successivo a Crini (PA)". I believe Crini is a typo (I could not find a town by that name) and it is the same province (PA) as Carini.

v/r Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

Jeff never trust secondary sources ........ especially the Italian ones ..... often and willingly the authors have never done serious research or have trusted private diaries and stories of survivors often of a lower grade therefore not aware of the events if not experienced in first person ..... The attachment is the diary of the Command of the 214.a coastal division relating to July-August 1943 ..... (extract SME)

 

[jwsleser]

Maurizio

Grazie! Yes, but some of us are not lucky enough to have access to primary sources. That is why I posted information from all my sources so we could compare and check.

as I stated above:

Like everything Italian, it is never simple to solve. Again I will stress that providing sources is quite helpful

Pista! Jeff