Posted 21 February 2009 - 02:10 PM by david
Reading through the transcripts of the war diaries of the D.A.K, I have stumbled upon the following..................Dated 17/12/41.
"The Italian command would order to Agedabia all the available resources that were available in Tripolotania, and an attempt would also be made to fly in a Battalion of anti tank troops, their guns, fuel & ammunition....................
XXI Corpo disengaged from the enemy with only slight losses in equipment and reached their new positions. These being Trento & Pavia Divisions at Tmimi, Brescia at Derna, where the Bologna already occupied the Southern sector.
An anti tank battalion which had just been made available by the Italian high command, to cover the withdrawal of XXI Corpo at Tmimi, was over run by the enemy & annaihalated.
I know of no such anti tank battalion. Which one could it be?
Posted 21 February 2009 - 04:44 PM by guests
What's the date of the Tmimi action?
All the best
Andreas
Posted 21 February 2009 - 04:52 PM by david
Andreas.
It's not clear.
It appears from the text that this also took place on the 17th, but that seems impossible to me, as the order for the replacements was only given at 9:30 the same morning. Unless of course it is two different anti tank battalions, but that would double the mystery!
Either way, with the speed of the Commonwealth advance, it can only have been a matter of days later (than the 17th) at the most, surely?
Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:28 PM by guest
17/11/41? Unpossible. That's the day before CRUSADER started.
Are you sure it's not 17/12? That would be the day when the order to abandon the Gazala position was given. The rest of the narrative fits.
My first guess would be that D.A.K. did get it wrong and that they are talking about the Valerini detachment.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t;=5387&p;=34893&hilit;=valarini#p34893
All the best
Andreas
Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:31 PM by david
A thousand apologies
I do indeed mean December. My typo, my fault!
I have edited my original post.
Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:34 PM by david
The Valarini detachment is in the area at the time I think, as it too gets a brief mention in the diaries.
But it's not the unit I am looking for, as it is not equipped with 24 anti tank guns, only 8 according to the link you posted above.
Posted 21 February 2009 - 06:53 PM by guests
There's nothing specific either in the 7th Armoured Division or 13 Corps reports.
All the best
Andreas
Posted 21 February 2009 - 07:33 PM by jwsleser
David
I took a quick look at Montanari (vol II) to see if I could help. No separate AT was mentioned in the account. I did read the following on page 685 (on the 16th of Dec):
I was unable to find a XLIV btg. listed anywhere.
The 8th Bersaglieri was there (III, V, e XII) and I wondered if the AT battalion was possibly a heavy weapons battalion. When checking to see if the 8th Bersaglieri had such a battalion, I found this old post.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t;=3507&p;=23911&hilit;=8+bersaglieri+regiment#p23911
Unfortunately the poster didn't provide a source.
The British official doesn't mention overrunning/destroying a enemy unit (Playfair vol III pages 82-85). In fact, the attacks on Gazala and Tmimi were pretty much unsuccessful. The 4th Armor did run into enemy guns on the 16th.
That is alll I have found so far.
Pista!
Jeff
Posted 21 February 2009 - 08:14 PM by david
OK.
We'll have to keep looking then!
Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:16 PM by jwsleser
Look no more.
In Allegato 31 in Montanari (page 863) I found a discussion at Berta at Panzergruppe Afrika HQs on 17 December:
It appears that a c.c. btg. from the Granatieri Regiments/Granatieri di Sardegna was the unit under consideration.
I cross-checked in Verbali, but nothing is said about this.
Pista!
Jeff
Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:33 PM by inhocsinovinces
If you look here
http://digilander.libero.it/lacorsainfi ... anovra.htm
you can read attached at the Trento Division a 551° btg aa.ac. Maybe is this the Battalion?
Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:45 AM by david
Jeff.
IV Battagliano Granatieri Di Sardegna seems to fit the bill, but I don't have it arriving in N.A until May 1942. And it certainly wasn't destroyed in late 1941.
However, I have heard of another Granatieri unit in N.A about this timeframe, but have never been able to prove it. on the contrary, convential wisdom has said no.
But we may need to challenge the conventional wisdom. Can we trace a timeline on the Granatieri units that were in existance in december 1941? We may be able to find our unit by a process of elimination. I will try to find where I have seen mention of the "other" unit in N.A.
Watch this space.
Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:56 AM by david
inhocsignovinces.
The only Battaglione nmbered DLI (551) that I know of was a Mitraglieri Battaglione, and therefore unlikely still to be around in late 1941.
HOWEVER! You have reminded me that there were indeed 3x c.c.c attatched to Trento; 102, 104 & 106.
Unfortunately, these can not be the unit in question, as they were already present in N.A @ the end of April 1941, if not earlier. Remember, we are looking for a unit that was flown in at very short notice.
I prefer Jeff's suggestion. But thanks for your interest & input.
Posted 22 February 2009 - 03:19 AM by jwsleser
David
I believe we are talking about two different btg. For your original post, there is a battalion that might be flown in from Italy. My second post discusses the possibility of a battalion being airlifted. I believe this is the from the grenadiers.
Later in your original post they discuss a battalion that HAD been made available to cover the retreat as being overrun. I believe this is the XLIV Bersaglieri btg. My first post discusses a c.c. btg that had just been released by higher HQs to cover the retreat.
I believe the unit supposedly overrun is the XLIV Bersaglieri. I believe the c.c btg that might have been airlifted is the IV btg. Granatieri you mentioned. I will continue looking but I think the c.c btg wasn't actually transported to A.S. until later (I will bet your May 42 date).
I will take a closer look at Allegato 31. I believe it is the Italian version of the same conversation in your original post.
Pista!
Jeff
Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:35 AM by david
inhocsignovinces.
If Jeff is correct, and we are in fact looking for two different units, your theory suddenly carries more weight.
Let's all dig deeper & see what we can find.
Reading through the transcripts of the war diaries of the D.A.K, I have stumbled upon the following..................Dated 17/12/41.
"The Italian command would order to Agedabia all the available resources that were available in Tripolotania, and an attempt would also be made to fly in a Battalion of anti tank troops, their guns, fuel & ammunition....................
XXI Corpo disengaged from the enemy with only slight losses in equipment and reached their new positions. These being Trento & Pavia Divisions at Tmimi, Brescia at Derna, where the Bologna already occupied the Southern sector.
An anti tank battalion which had just been made available by the Italian high command, to cover the withdrawal of XXI Corpo at Tmimi, was over run by the enemy & annaihalated.
I know of no such anti tank battalion. Which one could it be?
Posted 21 February 2009 - 04:44 PM by guests
What's the date of the Tmimi action?
All the best
Andreas
Posted 21 February 2009 - 04:52 PM by david
Andreas.
It's not clear.
It appears from the text that this also took place on the 17th, but that seems impossible to me, as the order for the replacements was only given at 9:30 the same morning. Unless of course it is two different anti tank battalions, but that would double the mystery!
Either way, with the speed of the Commonwealth advance, it can only have been a matter of days later (than the 17th) at the most, surely?
Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:28 PM by guest
17/11/41? Unpossible. That's the day before CRUSADER started.
Are you sure it's not 17/12? That would be the day when the order to abandon the Gazala position was given. The rest of the narrative fits.
My first guess would be that D.A.K. did get it wrong and that they are talking about the Valerini detachment.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t;=5387&p;=34893&hilit;=valarini#p34893
All the best
Andreas
Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:31 PM by david
A thousand apologies
I do indeed mean December. My typo, my fault!
I have edited my original post.
Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:34 PM by david
The Valarini detachment is in the area at the time I think, as it too gets a brief mention in the diaries.
But it's not the unit I am looking for, as it is not equipped with 24 anti tank guns, only 8 according to the link you posted above.
Posted 21 February 2009 - 06:53 PM by guests
There's nothing specific either in the 7th Armoured Division or 13 Corps reports.
All the best
Andreas
Posted 21 February 2009 - 07:33 PM by jwsleser
David
I took a quick look at Montanari (vol II) to see if I could help. No separate AT was mentioned in the account. I did read the following on page 685 (on the 16th of Dec):
Un altro contrattacco riportava la situazione in equilibrio, ma si trattava di equilibrio instabile. Verso sera, per effettuare la rottura del contatto, navarini ordinò l’impiego del complesso tattico motorizzato inviato a a tale scopo dal Pabzergruppe. Era costituito dal XLIV battaglione bersgalieri con due batterie da 88, e fu sotto la protezione do questo bravo battaglione che le divisioni poterono sganciarsi.
Another counterattack restored the equilibrium, but it was an unstable equilibrium. Towards evening, to effect a break in contact, Navarini ordered the employment of a tactical motorized group dispatched for this purpose from the Panzergruppe. It was established by the XLIV bersaglieri battalion with two batteries of 88s, and it was under the protection of this capable battalion that the divisions could break away.
My translation.
I was unable to find a XLIV btg. listed anywhere.
The 8th Bersaglieri was there (III, V, e XII) and I wondered if the AT battalion was possibly a heavy weapons battalion. When checking to see if the 8th Bersaglieri had such a battalion, I found this old post.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t;=3507&p;=23911&hilit;=8+bersaglieri+regiment#p23911
One of my sources has 3rd Anti-Tank battalion as a part of this Regiment as of Mid 1941. This doesn't conflict with what has gone before - the 72nd and 132 AT Coys could have been part of the 3rd AT battalion. Or they could have been part of the V and XII Bers. Bttns, which I understand consisted of 2 infantry coys and an AT coy. I'd say the first was most likely.
The III Bers (which started as an M/C Bttn) seems to have converted to a heavy weapons Bttn around mid 1941. This consisted (AFAIK) of an AA coy, a Mortar coy and a Machinegun coy.
Does anyone know how coys were numbered in battalions, by the way? Was it 1st, 2nd and 3rd coys or company A, B and C? And in the case of the AT coys, were they numbered, lettered or just called the AT coy? Likewise, the Heavy Weapons Bttn, how were its coys numbered?
Unfortunately the poster didn't provide a source.
The British official doesn't mention overrunning/destroying a enemy unit (Playfair vol III pages 82-85). In fact, the attacks on Gazala and Tmimi were pretty much unsuccessful. The 4th Armor did run into enemy guns on the 16th.
That is alll I have found so far.
Pista!
Jeff
Posted 21 February 2009 - 08:14 PM by david
OK.
We'll have to keep looking then!
Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:16 PM by jwsleser
Look no more.
In Allegato 31 in Montanari (page 863) I found a discussion at Berta at Panzergruppe Afrika HQs on 17 December:
Rommel: ...We have not abandon hope to get reinforcements, but we uselessly wait.
Bastico: The division Sabratha will be moved toward Sirte, and we will try to remove all possible weapons from Tripolitania.
Cavallero: We will do everything possible to send by air a grenadier antitank battalion with 24 pieces of 47[mm].
My translation.
It appears that a c.c. btg. from the Granatieri Regiments/Granatieri di Sardegna was the unit under consideration.
I cross-checked in Verbali, but nothing is said about this.
Pista!
Jeff
Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:33 PM by inhocsinovinces
If you look here
http://digilander.libero.it/lacorsainfi ... anovra.htm
you can read attached at the Trento Division a 551° btg aa.ac. Maybe is this the Battalion?
Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:45 AM by david
Jeff.
IV Battagliano Granatieri Di Sardegna seems to fit the bill, but I don't have it arriving in N.A until May 1942. And it certainly wasn't destroyed in late 1941.
However, I have heard of another Granatieri unit in N.A about this timeframe, but have never been able to prove it. on the contrary, convential wisdom has said no.
But we may need to challenge the conventional wisdom. Can we trace a timeline on the Granatieri units that were in existance in december 1941? We may be able to find our unit by a process of elimination. I will try to find where I have seen mention of the "other" unit in N.A.
Watch this space.
Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:56 AM by david
inhocsignovinces.
The only Battaglione nmbered DLI (551) that I know of was a Mitraglieri Battaglione, and therefore unlikely still to be around in late 1941.
HOWEVER! You have reminded me that there were indeed 3x c.c.c attatched to Trento; 102, 104 & 106.
Unfortunately, these can not be the unit in question, as they were already present in N.A @ the end of April 1941, if not earlier. Remember, we are looking for a unit that was flown in at very short notice.
I prefer Jeff's suggestion. But thanks for your interest & input.
Posted 22 February 2009 - 03:19 AM by jwsleser
David
I believe we are talking about two different btg. For your original post, there is a battalion that might be flown in from Italy. My second post discusses the possibility of a battalion being airlifted. I believe this is the from the grenadiers.
Later in your original post they discuss a battalion that HAD been made available to cover the retreat as being overrun. I believe this is the XLIV Bersaglieri btg. My first post discusses a c.c. btg that had just been released by higher HQs to cover the retreat.
I believe the unit supposedly overrun is the XLIV Bersaglieri. I believe the c.c btg that might have been airlifted is the IV btg. Granatieri you mentioned. I will continue looking but I think the c.c btg wasn't actually transported to A.S. until later (I will bet your May 42 date).
I will take a closer look at Allegato 31. I believe it is the Italian version of the same conversation in your original post.
Pista!
Jeff
Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:35 AM by david
inhocsignovinces.
If Jeff is correct, and we are in fact looking for two different units, your theory suddenly carries more weight.
Let's all dig deeper & see what we can find.