Warrant officer headwear

[Ironmaiden2000]

To clarify i have two links I would like y'all's input on. 1 and 2. Now my question is just to make sure that for warrant officers the trend would still be as the first one shows as far as peaked caps go. However the book (which i am choosing to trust more) makes no mention of warrant officers and peaked caps. Yes they are still officers but I am unsure in terms of historical terms which to trust

 

[FrancoFB]

Just as a joke
the Marescialli don't use cap because they are in the offices


i don't think they were considered officers in the RE, just old NCO

 

[jwsleser]

If you are asking about the braid on the peaked caps and bustine, the book is wrong. All ranks worn peaked caps (Generals to the lowest privates).

The four grades of marescialli all have the braid as shown in your #1. See Viotti Uniform e distintivi dell'Esercito Italiano fra due Guerra 1918-1935. Picture below is vol. 2, p. 451. The Osprey book omits the info on the marescialli.

The maresciallo is mainly a technician without command authority. However there are documented examples when maresciallo commanded platoons in combat. While they are usually promoted from old NCOs, they are more than that.

Pista! Jeff

 

[Ironmaiden2000]

If you are asking about the braid on the peaked caps and bustine, the book is wrong. All ranks worn peaked caps (Generals to the lowest privates).

The four grades of marescialli all have the braid as shown in your #1. See Viotti Uniform e distintivi dell'Esercito Italiano fra due Guerra 1918-1935. Picture below is vol. 2, p. 451. The Osprey book omits the info on the marescialli.

The maresciallo is mainly a technician without command authority. However there are documented examples when maresciallo commanded platoons in combat. While they are usually promoted from old NCOs, they are more than that.
Pista! Jeff
View attachment 989

Makes sense. Didnt know all ranks had peaked caps. However i assume the symbol on the side of the bustina for mostly field use as evident by some officers is also correct?

 

[jwsleser]

The bustina was originally a field/fatigue item, but became general wear both in garrison and in the field. The insignia on the side of the bustina is the officer's rank. Only ufficiali and marescialli worn rank on their bustina, NCOs and enlisted did not. These ranks were used on the bustina mod. 42 as well. The chart is from Marzetti's Uniform e distintivi Italiani 1933-1945, p.80.

 

[FrancoFB]

Marescialli that commanded unit in battle are Aiutanti di Battaglia or simple Marescialli?

 

[Ironmaiden2000]

Shame I only speak english, otherwise i would totally buy these to learn more rather then asking doubly, some of the books seem to have english sections although i do not know if it contains a full english edition

 

[jwsleser]

Franco

I am not sure. I noticed this a few years ago when reading about the officer problems in the RE. I would need to go check my sources again to see if I can find the mention. Sadly it wasn't something I was researching at the time, so didn't take any notes.

It would make sense that they were Aiutanti di Battaglia. Didn't know much about the marescialli at the time, so the distinction escaped me.

Pista! Jeff

 

[FrancoFB]

Aiutanti di Battaglia are only promoted on the field, and in theory don't need to be sergeant

p.s. and the origin was in WW I probably for get platoon commander with experience and not only the young officer came from the short wartime school

 

[Ironmaiden2000]

If you are asking about the braid on the peaked caps and bustine, the book is wrong. All ranks worn peaked caps (Generals to the lowest privates).

The four grades of marescialli all have the braid as shown in your #1. See Viotti Uniform e distintivi dell'Esercito Italiano fra due Guerra 1918-1935. Picture below is vol. 2, p. 451. The Osprey book omits the info on the marescialli.

The maresciallo is mainly a technician without command authority. However there are documented examples when maresciallo commanded platoons in combat. While they are usually promoted from old NCOs, they are more than that.

Pista! Jeff
View attachment 989

Forgot to ask post 1935 and what i assume 1940 with the year date, how were cuffs marked rank wise? Did it stay the same during the war?

 

[jwsleser]

Ironmaiden2000

No, maresccialli didn't wear cuff insignia, they only worn the rank on the hat/cap and shoulder boards. The hat insignia only indicated that the soldato was a maresciallo, it doesn't shown the specific grade. You need to see the shoulder boards to know that information. See Viotti Uniformi e distintivi dell'Esercito Italiano nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale 1940-1945, chart on p.72 and text on p.76. If you look at your picture 1 in your first post and my first picture (in color), there aren't any cuff insignia shown, only hat and shoulder boards.

Pista! Jeff