• As some of you know, the old forum database was deleted by the previous administrator. I am attempting to paste any retrievable discussions back into this forum using the internet archive. It won't look pretty - but at least we can preserve some valuable information. Feel free to add to the discussions as these old posts are restored.

Help With CSIR and 8th Army Composition

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I had some difficulty properly translating the following titles for the CSIR:

Gruppo AA autocampale
Reparto Munizioni e Viveri. Is this Munitions and Food Department?
colombaia mobile. Is this Mobile Pigeon?
cannoni d’accompagnamento
Sezione bonifica gassati
di Commissariato

For the rest, does this look accurate?

–Command
––Commander: General C.A. Francesco Zingales (until 13 July 1941), General C.A. Giovanni Messe (from 16 July 1941)
––Chief of Staff: Colonel Guido Piacenza
––Artillery Commander: General B. Francesco Dupont
––Engineering Commander: Colonel Mario Tirelli
––Headquarters
–––193.a Motorized Royal Carabinieri Section
–––194.a Motorized Royal Carabinieri Section
–––684.a Motorized Royal Carabinieri Section
–––33.a Topocartografy Section
–––33.a Photographic Section
–––33.a Topographers for Artillery Section
–––88.o Military Post Office
–––Film Photo Department
–––Headquarters Transportation Detachment for Army Corps Command
–––13.o Traffic Control Detachment Road Traffic Corps
–––1.a Fuel Section

–––Corp Attachments Directly dependent units
–––Infantry
––––104.o Army Corps Machine Gun Battalion
–––– 2nd Anti-Tank Battalion (47/32) 2.o 47/32 Cannon Anti-Tank Battalion
––––1.a Bersaglieri Motorcycle Company
–––Artillery
––––30.o Army Corps Artillery Group (Colonel Lorenzo Matiotti) with:
––––60.o 105/32 Cannon Group Better is 60th Artillery Group (105/32)
––––61.o 105/32 Cannon Group
––––62.o 105/32 Cannon Group
––––4.o Gruppo AA Group (Motorized) autocampale
––––19.o Gruppo AA Group (Motorized) autocampale da (75/46)
––––95.a AA Battery (20 mm)
––––97.a AA Battery (20 mm)
–––Engineers
––––4.o Engineer Battalion with:
–––––Command
–––––1.a,2.a and 3.a Engineer Company
––––1.o Bridge Battalion
––––9.o Bridge Battalion
––––8.o 8th Liaison Battalion Battalion links with:
–––––Comando
–––––121.a and 122.a Telegraph Company
–––––102.a Radio Telegraph Company
–––––20.a Mobile Carrier Pigeon colombaia mobile
––––19.a Liaison Motor transport Autotracked Workshop for Bonding Materials
––––88.a Mobile Truck Mounted Searchlight Section
–––Chemical Services
––––1.o Chemical Battalion
––––16.a Chemical Troops Company
–––Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale (MVSN)
––––63.a Tagliamento Legion (Console Nicolò Nicchiarelli) with:
–––––63.o CC.NN Mountain Battalion “Udine”
–––––69.o CC.NN Assault Battalion CC.NN. “Reggio Emilia”
–––––63.o Support Weapons Accompaniment Battalion (Army of the Esercito)
–––Alpine Ski Battalion Monte Cervino (from February 1942)
––––Headquarters Comando
––––1.a Company
––––2.a Company
––––80.a Support Weapons Accompaniment Company (from April 1942)

–––Army Observation Group Air Force (of the Esercito) (Colonel Carlo Drago)
––––61.o Army Observation Group Observation Group for the Esercito with:
–––––Headquarters
–––––34.a Observation Squadron
–––––119.a Observation Squadron
–––––128.a Observation Squadron
––––22.o Fighter Group (of the Regia Aeronautica) with:
–––––Headquarters
–––––359.a Fighter Squadron
–––––362.a Fighter Squadron
–––––369.a Fighter Squadron
–––––371.a Fighter Squadron
––––245.a Transport Squadron
––––246.a Transport Squadron

–––Corps Services
––––Medical Services Sanitary
–––––14.a Medical Sanitary Section
–––––1.a and 2.a Mobile X-Ray Unit Radiological Ambulance
–––––14.a Mobile Dentistry Unit Ambulance
–––––2.a and 25.a Disinfection Section
–––––60.o,64.o, 163.o, 164.o,235.o, 238.o, 239.o, 256.o, 257.o, 820.o, 827.o, 828.o, 829.o 830.o, 831.o, 837.o, 838.o and 873.o Camp Hospital
–––––2.a and 104.a Chemical Treatment Section Sezione bonifica gassati
–––––Chemical, Bacteriological, Toxicological Laboratory
––––Commissariat Service di Commissariato
–––––87.a Subsistence Section
–––––19.a Section and 23.a Field Bakery Squads Bakers Squad with mobile ovens.
––––Veterinary Services
–––––2.a and 6.a Animal Infirmary
–––Transportation Services
––––82.o Pack Animal Unit Baggage Department
––––2.o Army Transportation Group Motor Department (Colonel Ginesio Ninchi) with:
–––––29.o Heavy Truck Group Motor Department with:
––––––33.o, 34.o, 96.o, 97.o Heavy Truck Units Motor Department
–––––2.o Mixed Truck Motor Group with
––––––26.o, 32.o, 91.o Heavy Truck Units Motor Group
––––––116.o Light Truck Unit Motor Group
––––––228.o Mixed Truck Unit Motor Group
––––––51.o Motorized Ambulance Unit Motor Group
––––15.a Mobile Motor Group Workshop
––––8.o Vehicle Recovery Road Rescue Unit Department
––––13.o Vehicle Recovery Road Rescue Detachment Corps
––––CSIR Military Tribunal of War. (President: Colonel G.B. Costa)

––9.a Auto transport Pasubio Division
–––Commander: General Vittorio Giovannelli
–––Chief of Staff: Tenente Colonnello Umberto Ricca
–––Headquarters
––––25.o Royal Carabinieri Section
––––26.a Royal Carabinieri Section
––––9.o Automotive Detachment Infantry Division Command
––––91.a Fuel Section
––––9.o Roadside Assistance Corps
––––8.o Traffic Corps
––––1.o Photocinematic Group
––––83.o Military Post Office
–––Infantry
––––Commander Infantry Division: General B. Aldo Princivalle
––––79.o Roma Infantry Regiment (Colonel Rocco Blasioli)
–––––Commander and Regiment Company Commander
–––––81mm Mortar Company
–––––cannoni d’accompagnamento da 65/17 Battery
–––––1.o Battalion above:
––––––Commander and Battalion Company Commander
––––––1.a, 2.a and 3.a Rifle Company
––––––4.a Weapons Accompaniment (Machinegun and 81 mm Mortar)
–––––2.o Battalion above:
––––––Commander and Battalion Company Commander
––––––5.a, 6.a and 7.a Rifle Company
––––––8.a Weapons Accompaniment (Machinegun and 81 mm Mortar)
–––––3.o Battalion above:
––––––Commander and Battalion Company Commander
––––––9.a, 10.a e 11.a Rifle Company
––––––12.a Weapons Accompaniment (Machinegun and 81 mm Mortar)
––––80.o Reggimento Fanteria Roma (Colonel Epifanio Chiaramonti) above :
–––––Identical composition as 79.o Regiment
––––5.o and 9.o 81mm Mortar Battalion
––––9.a and 141.a 47/32 Cannon Anti-Tank Company
–––Artillery
––––8.o Motorized Artillery Regiment (Colonel Alfredo Reginella)
–––––Commander and Regiment Commander Department
–––––1.o 100/17 Howitzer Motorized Group
–––––2.o 75/27 Cannon Motorized Group
–––––3.o 75/27 Cannon Motorized Group
–––––Munitions and Food Department
–––––85.a and 309.a 20 mm Mod.35 AA Battery
–––Engineering
––––30.a Artillery Engineering Company
––––9.a Telegraph and Radiotelegraph Engineering Company
––––95.a Searchlight Operators Section
–––Services
–––––Sanitation
–––––5.a Sanitation Section
–––––825.o, 826.o, 836.o, 874.o Camp Hospital
–––––25.o Surgery Corps
–––di Commissariato
––––11.a Substinence Section
––––26.a Bakery Squad with mobile ovens
–––Transportatiom
––––9.a Modello 37 Workshop

––52.a Torino Division Auto transport
–––Commander: General Di Divisione Luigi Manzi
–––Chief of Staff: Lieutenant Colonel Umberto Scalcino
–––Headquarters
––––56.a Royal Carabinieri Motorized Section
––––66.a Royal Carabinieri Motorized Section
––––52.o Transportation Department of Infantry Division Command
––––52.a Fuel Section
––––52.o Road Rescue Corps
––––5.o Road Traffic Corps
––––2.o Cinematography Group
––––152.o Military Post Office
–––Infantry
––––Infantry Division Commander: Colonel i.g.s. Ugo De Carolis
––––81.o Torino Infantry Regiment (Colonel Carlo Piccinini)
–––––Identical composition as Pasubio Division
––––82.o Torino Infantry Regiment (Colonel Evaristo Fioravanti)
–––––Identical composition as Pasubio Division
––––26.o and 52.o 81mm Mortar Battalion
––––52.a and 171.a Anti-Tank 47/32 Cannon Company
–––Artillery
––––52.o Motorized Artillery Regiment {Colonel Giuseppe Ghiringhelli)
–––––Command and Regiment Comand Detachment
–––––1.o Motorized 100/17 Howitzer Group
–––––2.o Motorized 75/27 Cannon Group
–––––3.o Motorized 75/27 Cannon Group
–––––Reparto Munizioni e Viveri
–––––352.a e 361.a AA 20 mm mod.35 Cannon Battery
–––Engineering
––––57.a Artillery Engineering Company
––––52.a Telegraph and Radiotelegraph Engineering Company
––––69.a Searchlight Section
–––Services
––––Sanitation
–––––52.a Sanitation Section
–––––89.o, 90.o,117.o and 578.o Camp Hospital
–––––52.o Surgery Corps
––––di Commissariato
–––––52.a Substinence Section
–––––65.a Bakery Squad with mobile ovens
––––Transportation
–––––52.a Workshop modello 37

––3.a Principe Amedeo Duca D’Aosta Division (rapid)
–––Commander: General B. Mario Marazzani General B. Gioacchino Solinas Lieutenant Colonel Dandolo Battaglini
––––Vice-Commander: General B. Mario Marazzani
––––Chief of Staff: Lieutenant Colonel Dandolo Battaglini
––––Headquarters
––––355.o Royal Carabinieri Rapid Corps
––––356.o Royal Carabinieri Rapid Corps
––––7.o Traffic Corps
––––2.o Cinematic Group
––––40.o Military Post Office
––––3.o Bersaglieri Regiment
––––Commander: Colonel Aminto Caretto
––––Commander and Regiment Company Commander
––––18.o Besaglieri Battalion Motor Vehicles
––––20.o Besaglieri Battalion Motor Vehicles
––––25.o Besaglieri Battalion Motor Vehicles
––––2.a Bersaglieri Motorcycle Company
––––3a Bersaglieri Motorcycle Company
––––122.a Light Motor Group
–––13.o Semoventi da 47/32 Cavalleggeri di Alessandria Group
–––172.a and 173.a Anti-tank Cannon da 47/32 Company
–––3.o 3.o Savoia Cavalry Regiment (end of March 1942)
––––Comandante: Colonel Weiss Poccetti
––––Commander and Regiment Squadron Commander
––––1.o Squadron Group above:
–––––Command
–––––1.o and 2.o Cavalry Squadron
––––2.o Squadron Group above:
–––––Command
–––––3.o and 4.o Cavalry Squadron
–––––5.o Machinegun Squadron
–––5.o Lancieri di Novara Regiment (until March 1942)
––––Commander: Colonel Egidio Giusiana
––––Commander and Regiment Squadron Commander
–––––1.o and 2.o Cavalry Squadron
––––2.o Squadron Group above:
–––––Command
–––––3.o and 4.o Cavalry Squadron
–––––5.o Machinegun Squadron
–––93.a and 101.a AA Battery with 20mm –mod 35 (from August 1941)
–––3.o Horse drawn Artillery Regiment (end of March 1942)
––––Commander: Colonel Cesare Colombo
––––Command and Regiment Command Department
––––1.o Horse Artillery Group above:
–––––Command
–––––1.a and 2.a 75/27 mod 1912 Battery
––––2.o Horse drawn Artillery Group above:
–––––Comando
–––––3.a and 4.a Battery of 75/27 mod 1912
––––3.o Horse Artillery Group above:
–––––Command
–––––5.a and 6.a Battery of 75/27 mod 1912
–––––Ammunition and Food Department
–––3.o Command L/3 Fast Tank Group San Giorgio (up to March 1942)
–––105.a Artillery Engineering Company for Rapid Division
–––103.a Radiotelegraph Engineering Company for Rapid Division
–––Services
––––Sanitation
–––––73.a Sanitation Section
–––––46.o,47.o,148.o,159.o Camp Hospital
–––––20.o Surgery Corps
–––di Commissariato
––––93.a Subsitinence Section
––––59.a Bakery squad with mobile ovens
–––Tractioned Mechanical Transports
––––213.o Mixed Motor Detachment
––––3.a Mobil Garage – mod. 37
–––6.o ] Bersaglieri Regiment (from March 1942)
–––47.o Bersaglieri Motorcycle Battalion (from March 1942)
–––99.o Motorized Mortar Battalion (from March 1942)
–––272.a Motorized Cannon da 47/32 Motorizzata Company (from March 1942)
–––120.o Motorized Artillery Regiment (from February 1942) with
––––Command and Regiment Command Department
––––1.o Artillery Group 100/17 – mod. 14 Howitzer
––––2.o and 3.o Artillery Group 75/27 – mod. 11 Cannon
––––Munitions and Food Department
–––67.o Armored Bersaglieri Battalion – L/6-40 Tanks (from summer 1942)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I had some difficulty properly translating the following titles for the CSIR:

1)Gruppo AA autocampale
2)Reparto Munizioni e Viveri. Is this Munitions and Food Department?
3)colombaia mobile. Is this Mobile Pigeon?
4)cannoni d’accompagnamento
5)Sezione bonifica gassati
6)di Commissariato

1) AA Field Group (antiaircraft)(motorized)
2)yes
3)yes
4) untranslatable, literally accompanying ... it was the regimental battery of support
5) untranslatable was in fact a gas remediation section
6) In the specific case, the Commissioner was the person in charge of managing the logistics, the Commissioner was his seat in the present case was mobile (like service supervisor)
All the best
maurizio
 
A typo (my)
–3.a Principe Amedeo Duca D’Aosta Division (rapid)
–––Commander: General B. Mario Marazzani General B. Gioacchino Solinas Lieutenant Colonel Dandolo Battaglini
––––Vice-Commander: General B. Mario Marazzani
––––Chief of Staff: Lieutenant Colonel Dandolo Battaglini
....
exact....
–3.a Principe Amedeo Duca D’Aosta Division (rapid)
–––Commander: General B. Gioacchino Solinas
––––Vice-Commander: General B. Mario Marazzani
––––Chief of Staff: Lieutenant Colonel Dandolo Battaglini

all the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
Some changes in Red above.
 

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Thank you Maurizio and Jeff. Changes being made now. I should have this published today or tomorrow.
 

jwsleser

Member
Staff member
Note the same style of changes should be done to the divisions. You need to standardize what terms/formats will use English equivalents and which ones remain using Italian conventions.

Looking at the Official history, Maurizio changed the Roman numerals to Arabic numbers. I don't know if you wish to maintain the original Italian numbering system or stay with Arabic.

For example: 79.o Roma Infantry Regiment should be in Italian - 79º reggimento fanteria « Roma » . In English usage - 79th Roma Infantry Regiment OR 79º Roma Infantry Regiment (if you wish to keep the º and ª instead of the st, nd, rd, th).

Artillery: Italian
8º Reggimento artiglieria motorizzato (Colonel Alfredo Reginella)
Comando e Compagnia Comando
-I Gruppo motorizzato obici da 100/17
-II Gruppo motorizzato cannoni da 75/27
-III Gruppo motorizzato cannoni da 75/27

English:
8º Motorized Artillery Regiment
–––––Command Group and Headquarters Company
–––––I Motorized Artillery Group (100/17) or 1st Motorized Artillery Group (100/17)
–––––II Motorized Artillery Group (75/27)
–––––III Motorized Artillery Group (75/27)

I hadn't noticed this before, but it is unusual for the artillery units to be labeled as cannoni or obici. The type of gun gives that information. I normally see I Gruppo motorizzato da 100/17, not I Gruppo motorizzato obici da 100/17. However the official history on Russia does list the artillery units as Maurizio wrote them. It just strikes me as odd.
 
Last edited:
Jeff
Look that the Italian military literature is full of subtle subtleties like the ones you have listed. I could mention that in some coeval reports of the Second World War we distinguish not only the type of cannon used (howitzer or cannon) but even the type of tow. Eg:
-121.o Group of 100/17 howitzers mod 06 hippotrainato or TM (mechanical towing) instead of 121.o Group of 100/17 and just as you read in others. Another example is that of divisions. In many writings of the same Royal Army after 1942 no mention is made of the "type", that is, no longer is written 4.a Livorno mountain infantry division but only 4.a Livorno infantry division even if the official nomenclature did not change never. Let's not talk about the units of genius where we often find the word "marconists" instead of the radio-telegraph officer only for the fact that the fascist "official" of the time did not want to wrong a father of the country like Guglielmo Marconi who had relatively little invented the radio. Let's not talk about the diversity of the Roman number from the Arabic one. During the fascist period, "romanity" was a must therefore everything was traced back to it and many times even the departments were so numbered but beware the only departments that officially had to have that diction were those of the CCNN and not those of the Royal Army that already they could not stand fascist interference in ... monarchical affairs. However, on the one hand, I agree, that is, when I go to summarize the battle orders of a certain nation, I always use the native language of that nation (English if it is British and American formations, German if German, Italian if Italian), with the only exception of the Japanese ones for obvious reasons. Why? .... because some ways of writing the syntax of the units are typically linked to the country to which they belong and in my humble opinion in the translation some meaning could be lost ...... however, every opinion is legitimate ....
Thanks for the attention
Maurizio





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jwsleser

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Maurizio

Complete agree with everything you said. The challenge for Jim is to decide on a format/style that will be consistently used for posting this type of information on the main page.

Some of my recommendations reflect the style used by the western nations. Most English reader are familiar with that style/methodology of presenting the information. That makes the information readily understood with those familiar with military history.

Pista! Jeff
 

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Maurizio

Complete agree with everything you said. The challenge for Jim is to decide on a format/style that will be consistently used for posting this type of information on the main page.

Some of my recommendations reflect the style used by the western nations. Most English reader are familiar with that style/methodology of presenting the information. That makes the information readily understood with those familiar with military history.

Pista! Jeff
And to top it off, I only have a Navy background. So Army terminology doesn't come easy. I went ahead and posted the CSIR portion. If you see any errors, please let me know and I'll fix it ASAP. Thanks again to Jeff and Maurizio.
 
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