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201.a and 202.a bersaglieri motorcicle coys

Certainly the battle in southern Bengal as it is called in contemporary Italian texts, the retreat of the 10th Italian army and the consequent battle of Beda Fomm still presents significant obscure points today ... in the years that have characterized my research one of the most The movements of the Bersaglieri motorcyclist companies 201.a and 202.a have certainly been obscure concerning this campaign on the side of the Royal Army. Therefore, if anyone is aware of any details on the movement of these units during the battle, I would be grateful if you could share them with me. .. my doubts stem from the fact that these two units that appear from the beginning of January on the territory occupied by the 10th Army have an uncertain origin ... in years of research both at the EMS and in other places I have not found traces of their original origin....they were provisional companies born after the loss of the 21st and 22nd Army Corps units in Tobruk and Bardia or units that arrived after 1 June from Italy. Hm?? apart from this they appear for the first time around the beginning of January 1941 and are localized both on 1st and 3rd January in Derna (Diary of the 10th army and also various graphic attachments to the SME volume the 1st counter-offensive. ..) but then .... they disappear .... the only trace remains in the fact that the 202nd company of Bersaglieri motorcyclists had formed two scouting nuclei (attachment 14 SME 1st offensive ...) which had also a 20mm section of the 46th battery and a 20mm section of the 4th battery. The first mystery in my opinion is represented by the fact that we find these two sections, the first aggregated to the 2nd motorized nucleus in the map of 23/1/41 attached to the volume the 1st counter-offensive ....) and the second always in the same table aggregated to the 1st and 3rd motorized grouping .... the problem that both the first unit and the second do not have Bersaglieri units inside them. The only bersaglieri units present in addition to the 10th regiment clearly identifiable in the area of Wadi Maneggia in army reserve are the bersaglieri battalion (composite) of the armored brigade and the part of bersaglieri belonging to the Pancano grouping which, however, we know the first composed of part from the 60th Bersaglieri Motorcyclist Company and from the 17th Bersaglieri Motorcyclist Company while the second from the remainder of the 60th ..... So I found these compositions supported by reports within the Rome SME documentation, therefore they would appear to be true but??? Furthermore, news about the presence of elements belonging to the 201st company of Bersaglieri motorcyclists as well as to the 60th are also present in the Australian diaries even if, as I have repeatedly maintained, these sources are often contradictory and incomplete especially with regard to the "enemy" however it remains also another fact that both the 201st and 202nd motorcyclist companies are among the units that "escaped" from Beda Fomm (you can also find them in the SME diaries of April 1941 and in the attachments to the SME volume on the Italo-German counter-offensive of March-April 41). Moreover, to confuse the waters there is also another fact and that is that within the Allegri nucleus which was none other than the Gialo column which was one of the few units to escape Beda Fomm there is also a motorcycle platoon of the Bersaglieri ... .Now very probably indeed perhaps certainly the two exploration nuclei of the Sabratha were later absorbed by the motorized nuclei but ....what happened to the Bersaglieri ...they were divided "Italian-style" among many different units and scattered on the territory or were simply aggregated to other units which, however, do not appear on the cards or in the official reports??? The fact remains that the units remained alive even after Beda Fomm???
All the best
Maurizio
 
Hi Maurizio.

Was the 17th Bersaglieri Motorcyclist Company originally part of the Pavia Division or is the number 17 just a coincidence?

Kind regards,
David
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
To refresh our memory, we had this discussion many moons ago...


Pista! Jeff
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I am just providing the links so participants in this discussion can refresh their memory of what was previously shared. The problem with these earlier posts is that few cites were provided.

Here is an other thread.

 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Maurizio provided this OB for 9 Dec 40. It lists several cp. motociclisti but doesn't provide the breakdown of the divisions where most of th eco. motociclisti would be found.

 

Slavomir

New Member
Maurizio,
I know that it is not much but I can locate two platoons of 202nd at Derna on 6 JAN (Scacchiere libico - egiziano. Situazione al 6-1-1941 from CS FF.AA. AS files).
I keep digging
Regards
Slavomir
 
Slavomir
Yes you are right there are two companies of the 202 in Derna on 6/1/1941 but after they disappear and you can no longer find a trace of them.....
all the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
I have build a list of what was possible and then what I know with cites. If anyone can add to the list with cites, please post and I will add.

Slavomir. Note my comment about the cp. motociclisti at Derna. If you have a cite that clarifies the unit, please post it.

Divisioni

17ª - Bengasi Aug 40 (L'Avanzata p. 102 fn1), Brg. Cor. Nov. 40 (Meccanizzazione II/p.217)

25ª -

27ª -

55ª -

60ª - Brg. Cor. Nov. 40 (Meccanizzazione II/p.217), Tonini Jan 41 (Prima Britannica p.209, I Fanti p.92), Brg. Cor. Feb 41 (Prima Britannica p.255)

61ª - Tobruk Dec. 40 (Prima Britannica p.331. Listed as 51ª but likely a typo),Tobruk Jan 41 (Prima Britannica p.183)

62ª -

63ª -

64ª - Bir Oasi Dec. 40 (Studi Storico Mil, 1990 p.125), listed 9–10 Dec. (p.344, 346, 349, 352)

Corpo d’Armata

10ª - Brg. Cor. Nov. 40 (Meccanizzazione II/p.217)

20ª -

21ª - XXI Cd’A (assumed) (Montanari I/p.597),

22ª - Tobruk Dec 40 (Prima Britannica p.331), Tobruk Jan 41 (Prima Britannica p.183)

23ª - Bengasi Aug 40 (L'Avanzata p. 102 fn1)

201ª - Derna Jan 41* (Prima Britannica p.209), elements at Homs Apr 41 (Prima Italo-Tedesca p.343)

202ª - Ragg. Moto. Jan 41 (Prima Britannica p.340), Derna Jan 41* (Prima Britannica Sch.17), elements at Homs Apr 41 (Prima Italo-Tedesca p.343)


* 201ª e 202ª. Could this be a typo? Is the cp. on the schizzo the same as the one list on p.209?
 
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The picture set out in the map attached to the volume The 1st offensive unpublished by the EMS has always seemed to me the most reliable (in this case the company marked in the box belonging to the Sabratha division should be the 202nd motorcyclist company while the two platoons present in the sector command box should be those belonging to the 201st company even if they are erroneously indicated as belonging to the 202nd company but instead exactly they are indicated in the OOB contained on page 209 of the text) and the the two companies indicated in the box of the Babini brigade are instead to be considered the 60th and 17th motorcyclist companies as reported in various notes both from the EMS and attached to the text in question.... however, two problems remain, namely who the two platoons that result in two maps (that of 1-1-41 and that of 1-25-41) present at El AGheila ...... and above all what happened to the two companies after 1-1- 41....since as I said (at least I) have never been able to find traces of it after this date in the reports of the EMS of Rome if not in the OOB of April 1941 attached to the Sabratha division......
all the best
Maurizio
 
Jeff On page 102 of the book "The preparation ... the advance ... of the SME there is the 23rd motorcyclist company not the 63rd ..... the 63rd is on pages 101-363 Historical Studies military 1990 The Catanzaro division....moreover the motorcyclist companies 201 and 202 did not belong to CCNN divisions but were from the Army Corps (he tells you on page 340 of the "first British.....) also because no division CCNN had its own motorcycle company ..the only ones that had it had had it either from the Army Corps or from another division and furthermore the 203rd and 204th never existed....
All the best
Maurizio
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Thank you for the corrections Maurizio. Brain cramp on my part. Corrected.
 

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
the 64th is on pages 101-363 Historical Studies military 1990 The Catanzaro division

What is the Italian title of the Historical Studies military 1990? What is pages 101-363. That is a lot of pages.
 

Slavomir

New Member
Great find, Maurizio

Slavomir. Note my comment about the cp. motociclisti at Derna. If you have a cite that clarifies the unit, please post it.
I would go for the 202nd at Derna. That is what tells me the Allegato for Diario Storico Militare del Giorno 6/1/41 (USSME N-2/390) of Comando Superiore FF.AA. AS
Scacchiere.jpg
That is where Schizzo 17 Prima Offensiva Britannica takes its data.
Regards
Slavomir
 
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